Sunday, October 31, 2004

Terror and Democracy

By Thomas Wheeler

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Posted 10/31 | Add a Comment

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  1. My understanding was that these estimates were only conservative! While I admire your comparison Thomas Wheeler it goes no way to solving the dilemma of how, now the “Coalition of the Willing” has created this enormous, abhorent abomination on civilisation, do they intend to fix the problem.

    Posted by blair stafford from  on  10/31  at  07:15 PM

  2. Fix the problem?

    The U.S. gov’t should:

    Immediately withdraw all U.S. military, government and corporate personnel from Iraq.

    Force U.S. president to offer the Iraqi people a public apology for the invasion every day for the next 14 years, the time period covering the sanctions, invasion and occupation.

    Pay tens of billions of dollars in restitution to the Iraqi people every year for the next 14 years.

    Pay non-U.S. companies to work with Iraqis to build hospitals, schools and other infrastructure across the nation.

    Send all U.S. government officials responsible for the sanctions, invasion and occupation to Iraq to stand trial for war crimes.

    Posted by Ralph Macchio from  on  10/31  at  07:38 PM

  3. Ralph Macchio for VP! And Thomas Wheeler can be Director of Health...or anything he wants to be...in my book.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/31  at  10:22 PM

  4. Interesting thoughts, not original or likely but interesting. I can still not honestly see this as fixing the problem per se however. Yes it would pull the troops out and justly place Americans in the chair as war criminals (a long overdue event); however your other solutions as magnaminous and just as they are will still only serve to allow give back the Iraqi people what the US and UN has systematically destroyed in the past two decades. 
    I would be very interested to hear from others of ideas that would not only rebuild the country of Iraq but also give viable answers as to how the world could ‘fix the problem’ that has been bought about by the Coalition invastion and subsequent occupation.
    Even with all the billions of dollars spent as suggested above it would still a far cry from re-establishing a funtioning political system without undue influence from foreign powers (who is going to do this I keep asking myself; for if it is left to simple democarcy in Iraq there are going to be some very pissed off minorities) or helping the population over the trauma that they have been caused.

    Posted by blair from  on  10/31  at  10:44 PM

  5. Let’s deal first with what YOU think is not “likely” that came down the pike from Macchio...and, then, perhaps we can get down to specifics that you say you’d like. The Iraqis cannot bloom under the auspices of U.S. or UN supervision. What’s “wrong” in your view w letting the Iraqis sort it all out for themselves?  Does your first line of objection have something to do w wanting to avoid a bloodbath?  Are you willing to consider that things have gone past the point where “re-establishing a funtioning political system” is not possible?

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/31  at  11:17 PM

  6. Firstly I do not beleive the Americans are likely to admit failure, point in case mmm… the past century and a half of intervention. Secondly I do not see it likely the American poplulation allowing it’s government to pay returibtutions to a country it has invaded and the majority of the population think blew up the Twin Towers that one day in september. Thirdly I can not see the US Congress authorising payments to non US companies to rebuild a countries education and health system when they can not even find the necessary funding to provide first world education and health care to it’s own population. And lastly as America is not even a co-signatory of the International War Crimes Conventions I can not honestly see it suddenly rearing up and ratifying that treaty so as it’s own citizens can be tried by international law. Call me naive but i can not honestly see these things happening, or maybe those of us living outside of the US have a completely skewed vision as to how the US Government operates.
    Gee and whats wrong with letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves that sounds like a typical argument of a school yard bully who grabs childs toy crushing it under his feet and then being told by the teacher that he should not have bought it to school.
    i believe you may have read into my last post something of your own volition as nowhere do i mention it being “wrong” for the Iraqis to work it out for themselves, however as to “avoiding a bloodbath” (your argument against my supposed disagreement with allowing the iraqis their freedom to work it out themselves) Jeesh is that not what the US and it’s coalition have created. So how can one avoid a bloodbath when it has already well underway. And who is responsible for this bloodbath if not the US Govt and it’s people for allowing this war.

    Posted by blair from  on  10/31  at  11:40 PM

  7. Richard asks:

    “What’s wrong in your view with letting the Iraqis sort it all out for themselves?”

    What IS wrong is that we have engerdered a situation were it will be impossible to do this. I honestly see no possible good outcome here. If the criminal American occupation of Iraq stays in place, there will be death and suffering. If they completely withdraw, there will be death and suffering. This has ZERO to with the Iraqi people being incapable or incompetant, but it IS asking alot of a population that is exhausted, starving, exploited, fractured and destoyed. What will happen in Iraq will we be similiar to what happened in Afganistan and various other places which were the victims of our (or other) colonial adventures. The factions with the most guns (whether they be remenents of the U.S. backed ‘security’ forces, or simply the more brutal ideologues and offshoots of the resistance) will find that a exhausted population will enevitably settle for an unjust peace when confronted by total war - and who can blame them when the alternative is seeing things like your son or daughter shot, raped, gutted, blown to bits etc. I hope it will not be so, but thugs and exploiters will be ruling iraq as far as I can see - either us or someone else.

    Posted by CK from  on  11/01  at  01:28 AM

  8. To: CK, Maybe this was the intention of the neo-cons all along, to destabilize the Arab world in order to more easily divide and conquer it. As long as you have American troops as fodder it doesn’t matter how many die as long as the PNAC can move forward toward their plans of global annihilation of all “enemies.”

    Posted by Rhino Rick from  on  11/01  at  05:58 AM

  9. First I’ll respond to Blair. I think we have a serious misunderstanding surrounding the bloodbath segment of your comment at the end; we do not seem to be in disagreement on anything important in that realm. It may stem from the language I used or my tone. I’ll review. However, on the “likely” business there’s significant diff.  To wit, it doesn’t matter a whit what the gen’l public is prepared for, inclined to do.  If you want to look to history, perhaps a better point of departure would be what John Brown had to do in his time when it was not “likely” that radical changes would be implemented. Slavery was dealt with violently in that instance.  Let’s say that nonviolent (even legal) means could be implemented today...for starters...to force the public to “reconsider” their take on what we’re all about, redefining security, etc. It is a monumental, daunting challenge, of course.  But there’s no way around that confrontation...even if it must eventually become violent.  Regarding the bloodbath segment, let me know if I’m addressing your initial questions about what to do...in underscoring (again) that I think we should pull out as per Macchio’s entry.  Best, Ox

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/01  at  09:57 AM

  10. In response to CK and, possibly, Rhino: Please note that my remark totally echoes what John Pilger recommends. To wit, the blood spilled is worse with our presence than it would be without it. The historical point to focus on is “our” Vietnam, perhaps. The anticipated bloodbath did NOT take place...which was the argument for not leaving...forever.  And the anguish, etc. in the country following our departure had more to do with out proactively trying to keep them down in many ways than it had to do w internal conflicts. The presumption that WE must help set things straight when it is WE who have been the biggest problem for the Iraqis must be buried. They are not our White Man’s Burden, and the scorecard is in to the effect that they were better off under Saddam. That’s not just my opinion either, Fisk, Pilger, Christian Parenti and many others joining in the chorus. But it’s the gen’l fallacy that I’m concerned with here. Not getting that we have no business there...never have...is exquisitely...dangerous.  That fact should guide us now in trying to address the horrors that exist there. There are plenty of ways “to help” once we depart.  For starters, we can do what we didn’t do...following the mid-seventies in Vietnam...once the Iraqi people battle it out amongst themselves.  That battle will come...regardless of what we do or want.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/01  at  10:25 AM

  11. I partially agree with CK in that I doubt there is going to be any positive outcome. However, I do think the odds are significantly better if the U.S. were to get the hell out and take all “coalition forces” with it. I still suspect that the future wouldn’t be too bright, but there would be a chance.

    Posted by micah holmquist from  on  11/01  at  11:50 AM

  12. We have no business there...in a legal sense...in a moral sense. That’s why we should not be discussing whether or not it would be better for us to stay or go or do some version of either.  Rather, we should be doing something to force the U.S. Armed Forces out. To be brutally honest, Micah --and I do respect your good intentions and much else about you-- this business of spectulating on whether or not this or that outcome will come from this or that...is a waste of time for you and CK...and all of us. This is like talking trash down the street from Dachau...while we have a shot at taking down the barbed wire.  Just like the nazis had no business deporting people from France, we have no business continuing to, among other things, deporting people from Iraq to Guantanamo. Help can be given on a truly NGO-basis (truly NGO!) from a distance...on a case by case basis...w/o a huge template of any kind being imposed.  And the Iraqis...whoever among them prevail...whoever among them survive and can get access to what we have to offer from our end...can take or not take as they see fit.  But one cannot make a case for equivalency here...that it’s “six of one, half a dozen of the other” in connection with our presence.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/01  at  12:42 PM

  13. I see this has stemmed a large amount of dialogue, exceptionally happy about that.  I must still say though that we living in the outside of the US seem to have a very skewed version of how the US govt. functions and the sentiment of the times in US. From everything I have read, heard and experienced (as much as I do take heart and agree with the noble sentiments expressed here in this forum) I see no 21st century John Brown in American politics currently and also until the general population undergoes some from of radical transformation away form it’s fundamentalist based nationalism (at least that is the impression being projected externally) I personally see no US leadership willing to stand up and say “hey we have got it wrong, have always had got it wrong and are willing now to be culpable global citizens of equal standing to any other country” unlike equal in the Orwellian sense.
    In the end I have to agree with all who wish for a n American pullout being vehemently and even arrested for my oppostion to the war last year; so is this the lot of America now! To go against the general world consensus invade countries, kill 10s if not 100s of thousands of innocents, destabalise a region, promote nay encourage extremism, allow the proliferation of weapons and then pull their troops back to the safety of Ohio or whatever small town they come from and then say but you wanted us to leave. Personally the cynic in me actually wants to believe that this is actually well planned American Foreign Policy.

    Posted by blair stafford from  on  11/02  at  06:01 PM

  14. A premature pullout is neither well-planned AFP...nor likely w/o great confrontation.  As far as there being no John Browns afloat...certainly --it goes w/o saying-- not w/i The Mainstream.  But elsewhere?  There are people who could assume that mantle.  You go far afield, however, if you’re still stuck in gauging what the American public will go for.  They cannot --in the main-- be counted on to start things.  They weren’t in Brown’s time either.  And they are not needed...at first.  Ditto re Brown’s era.  The troops must leave because they have no justification for being there, and we must force them --w/o asking help from Kerry-- to leave. Assistance to the Iraqis and others?  That can be seen to on an unofficial basis at first.  As things get rolling the aid, etc. can come from official channels PERHAPS. But, regardless, if zero else occurs to help them...the troops must leave. Sanctions of all kinds must be lifted...not only for Iraq, but elsewhere.  Start the climate to help Native Americans HERE NOW...and you will be doing something toward getting help one way or another to Iraqis following a pullout.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/02  at  06:56 PM

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