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Sunday, December 05, 2004

Pat Tillman and Ricky Williams

By Mickey Z.

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Posted 12/05 |

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Hypocrisy is right - especially contemptible at this time of year, with all the flowery sentiments of peace on earth and all that crap and the saccharine Xmas carols all the while the US is engaged in its perennial butchery. I too admire Ricky Williams for putting getting high above garnering millions playing football. Although there’s not in America, there ought to be more, not to speak of higher, values than money. Smoking pot is an essential component of my happiness. That it’s illegal while the rest of the schlock that passes for culture in America is accepted, sanctioned and encouraged is as inexplicable as about every thing else about America.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/05 at 06:45 PM

Well, it’s not quite like Ricky is now living on the street. He already has his millions. He’s just turning his back on more. Maybe. There is sporadic talk of him coming back.

Posted by Greg Stricherz from Minneapolis, MN on 12/06 at 09:38 AM

If Ricky Williams came back this season he would have had to pay a huge portion of his salary to fines to the NFL just for testing positive for marijuana. Besides he felt he was overused, which was obvious. In 2002 he was the best running back in his league, one of the quickest, fastest big men ever. In 2003, he’d lost that zip and his yards per average were way down.

Aside from that, he deserves respect for his courage in bucking the professional sports machine in the tradition of John Brodie, NFL quarterback who wasn’t afraid to admit to George Leonard in his great The Ultimate Athlete that he thought his passes sometimes veered, of their own volition, over pass defenders’ hands; Dave Kopay, the gay linebacker who came out in the seventies; Eserva Tuaolo, who came out this year; and Tim Green, who after playing in the NFL and still announcing their games, wrote The Dark Side of the NFL.

Please, Rickey, don’t make yourself look bad by giving up your Ayurveda training. Stick with it and good luck!

Posted by Russ Wellen from Sleepy Hollow, New York on 12/06 at 10:51 AM

I couldn’t help but to spit out the mocha frap I was drinking as I horse laughed from reading Mickey Z’s entertaining yet misinformed blog regarding the incorrigible Ricky Williams.

First of all, let’s get one thing straight. Ricky Williams is a mouth breathing imbecile. He apparently lacks the native intelligence and basic math skills to realize that if he quits smoking the ganga temporarily, and plays 5 more years of football, he’ll have all of the money and time he needs to smoke himself into a mouth breathing stupor on a daily basis.

As for slagging America for being hypocritical and in denial, Mr. Z is simply wrong. Ricky Williams signed a lucrative contract only to bail out on his teammates at the last possible moment so he could persue his own selfish and undisciplined recreational activiites without NFL harassment i.e. drug testing. That, Mr. Z. is what has chapped America’s collective arse.

Pat Tillman on the otherhand, was at the end of his contract and decided to forgo any contract renewal so he could serve his country. In the process of doing so, he gave his team and fellow teammates ample time to draft and sign free agents. In short, Tillman didn’t abandone his team and leave them in the lurch as did Rasta Ricky. That, Mr. Z, is what collective America found to be a noble act.

Perhaps Mr. Z should fact check before he makes such sweeping generalized insults about the very nation wherein he is guaranteed the right to free speech which allows him to haphazardly make said statments. Or perhaps he should sharpen his critical skills. At any rate, Pat Tillman is a friggin hero, and Ricky Williams is a palooka.

Posted by Al Kilya from Hell, or someplace near it on 12/06 at 03:24 PM

That was quite racist.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/06 at 03:26 PM

The comparison of Rickey Williams to Pat Tillman regarding their respective decisions to leave the NFL and millions of dollars to pursue other interests is completely rediculous. I have not been the type to beat the drum of war and blindly follow our national leaders but I can respect Pat Tillmans choice to not only provide lip service to the millitary but to join as well. You may have forgotten that Pat Tillman joined the millitary shortly after the 911 attacks. During that time, the support for the United States and the millitary was at an all time high. Not only did Pat Tillman truly believe in the cause of the war in Afghanistan, but he had also felt the desire to continue a long tradition of millitary service which goes back to WW2 with the service of his Grandfather.

Rickey Williams on the other have walked away from millions of dollars and his team to pursue selfish desires. Personally, I really dont care whether or not an individual wants to smoke pot. But using that as an excuse to leave and let down millions of people and give up a once in a lifetime opportunity is childish and immature. The NFL has
a set of rules that must be followed and if Ricky Williams thinks that they are unfair then go ahead, leave and dont come back. He is acting like a spoiled child who is “taking his ball and going home”.

As for race being an issue, that is another completely irrelevant issue. If Daunte Cullpepper left the Vikings and joined the millitary and Payton Manning left to smoke weed, we would be hearing the same reactions that their real life counterparts had regardless of race. Get a grip and start dealing in the reality of issues and stop focusing on race. its getting old.

Posted by Chris from New Jersey on 12/06 at 03:30 PM

This article is a perfect example of using the ‘race card.’ Of course.. when all else fails… pull out that last standing card!! What a joke. A man in WI shoots and kills 6 men and his lawyer says what??? ‘racial epithets were used...’ Regardless of whether or not this was true.. I somehow lose the connection of killing 6 people because they ‘used racial epithets.’ Sadly those people can’t speak for themselves because they are dead.
What level some have lowered to is upsetting to say the least… and this article is more than upsetting. Your a disgrace to yourself and your ungratefulness is sad. Tillman is my personal hero… regardless for your opinion on this war (which is obvious in your writing) you need to realize how important it is that someone is willing to put their butt on the line for you so that you can sit here and write such crap.
Please feel free to leave the country at any time… it’s obvious you have no gratitude for those before your time who have faught so this country (YOU) could be free. You might actually want to open up a history book so you can realize just how lucky you are.

Posted by lisa from USA on 12/06 at 10:12 PM

How did Tillman dying in Afghanistan make Mickey “free,” if such a word can be used with a straght face with regard to America, to write anything? The fact that Ricky Williams is disqualified from playing football for using marijuana is indicative of how free we are. Did the 58,000 Americans who died in Vietnam create our so-called freedom, also? What of the 3 million Indochinese who perished under the US aggression there? Did they too make us free? Did strong US economic, military and diplomatic support for Saddam Hussein for many years, right up until the day he disobeyed orders and stepped out of line by invading Kuwait in 1989, same execrable human being before as after, create our so-called freedom? Ditto Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda? Did strong US support for OBL and Al Qaeda to resist the Soviets in Afghanistan in 1979 make us free? Freedom...shove a plunger down my throat. As Gibran wrote, freedom is often the link in our chains which glitters most dazzlingly.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/06 at 10:56 PM

Notice that only white folks (and usually WASPs at that) are the ones who say “stop focusing on race.” This is about race. The whole war on drugs is about race, as well as the puritanical zeal that makes Jesuit schoolteachers tell young children not to whirl.

The CIA is knee deep in all aspects of the drug trade, including herb and acid. I have known people who plausibly claimed to haved worked with them. From my understanding, on a large commercial basis, anyone who grows good nugs in the States gets offered fucked with if they don’t collaborate, usually by setting up political busts ala Jon Sincliar. Leftists usually smoke weed in the States, and the weed market, being inundated with natural capitalists, are easy pickings for potential spooks. Of course the CIA also makes by far the best LSD 25, the White Fluff.

Inre race - in the 50s, Bing Crosby was given special permission by Dwight Eisenhower to grow his own ganja. Louis Armstrong tried to get permission for himself, to be rebuffed. It was one thing for a white sensible type like “Bing” to grow the stuff, but one jazz musician, even a safe one like Louis Armstrong and next thing you know Uppity Negros will be running the streets demanding their rights as Americans Jazz musicians.

Of course its about race.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/06 at 11:34 PM

The comment about history books reminds me of an old Jewish joke from Russia in the Pogrom era. Two old shlemiels are sitting on a park bench in the ghetto. Life is tough. Both of the guys are reading papers. Hershel is reading the samizdat local Jewish (socialist) paper. Moishe is reading the Czarist paper with juicy details from the famous forgery Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Hershel notices that his friend is not reading the Jewish paper.

“Moishe, what the hell are you doing reading that racist garbage?”

“Well, in your paper, it talks about how broke we are, how we have no jobs, how we much work we need to do to organize ourselves. In my paper it says we control the world.”

My point being that education, text books, everything is nine months pregnant with meaning, including the fact that some strange American right wing borderline racists read this website, and mine, yet only complain when they as a class are being accused of racism or anti-semitism or some such. Its like Naomi Klein’s recent column about how everyone was freaking out about how the Fallujah marine was smoking a cigarette, but no talk about all the civilian and soldier dead.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/06 at 11:42 PM

this article is a horrible display of misguided judgement. if ricky williams doesnt want to play football, thats fine. its a free country. its a free country because patriots like Pat Tillman protect his right to chose a profession in order to make money to spend and to pay any debt, fine, or bill of any kind. While are country isn’t perfect, and our government certainly isn’t, we can still vote and are entitled to unalienable rights that make this country the best place to live in the world. pat followed the footsteps of the men of his fellow 2nd battalion Ranger Company who on june 6th, 1944, endured horrible causualties fighting conscripted slaves and Germans of the Wehrmacht. a college friend of mine serves in Afghanistan. he doesn’t ‘kill brown people’. he protects villages like Parle, where citizens, including women, have had their throat slit for registering to vote in the past election. Protecting rights and freedom is one thing. Please don’t compare it with rushing yards and touchdowns. Pat Tillman was a man first, a player second. That man gave his life for freedom.

Posted by robert night from nj on 12/07 at 03:23 AM

It just goes to show how misguided Mickey Z, Tracy McLellan, Jordy Cummings and all the other strange, misanthropic souls who contribute to this web page have become.

All of you, with your racism, Jew baiting (this means YOU Jordy), Christian bashing, and your smug, ugly sarcasm are harming the progressive causes you claim to espouse. Rush Limbaugh couldn’t dream up a better opponent if he tried. Not that any of you have attracted a big enough following for him to notice.

What do you hope to accomplish with articles like this? Do you think this article will attract more people to the progressive cause? Will Tracy’s idiot comments about pot smoking create more progressives? No, quite the opposite.

You people are an embarrassment, a hindrance to the progresive causes I believe in. Why don’t you guys give us some more articles about how Christians are all idiots? If you want to accomplish something positive for the cause, your first step should be to SHUT UP.

And since I know you’re going to whine about the Jew baiting comment, Jordy, go look at your record: “Aish Hatorah are the Jewish Moonies.” “From Time Immemorial is the Jewish Mein Kampf.” There are hundreds of comments out there. You are a Jew who despises Jews, and it’s little wonder that you are a pariah in your own community. You fit right in on this page, with the true anti-semites and Holocaust deniers.

In the true spirit of Richard Oxman’s constant calls for direct action, I am begging you all to SHUT UP. Or only write for right wing causes from now on.

Posted by andrew from here on 12/07 at 04:27 AM

Aish are the Jewish moonies. I’m an Aish baiter, not a Jew baiter. In fact, their theology is quite a bit like Evangelical Christianity, minus Christ, with a hint of Lubavitcher schtick. I know wealthy right wing Jews who Aish have hit up for money, people who are to the right of Sharon, who have the same perception of Aish that I do. These people of my aqquaintance were nearly shaken down by those fuckers a few years back.

And we both know I’m not a Jew baiter, as do my Jewish readers.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/07 at 04:36 AM

I wrote once that “From Time” is the Likud Mein Kampf. I deal with nuts like this on a daily basis. This guy probably reads this site day in day out, thinking he is monitoring it for some higher duty, when a small part of himself is enjoying it and learning something. So keep on sniffing drain pipes, Andrew.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/07 at 04:44 AM

In response to No. 8 above by Tracy McLellan…

From your posting it is apparent that you are sorely lacking knowledge or understanding of the following:

1. Basic American and world history;
2. Geopolotics
3. the fact that in a global world, the U.S. often has to take action to protect its national interests;
4. the fact that freedom is a precious commodity on this rock that we call Earth.

It is also apparent from your posting that you want to come off as an idealist. However, your idealism is transparent. It is obviously shaped by sound bites that you probably lifted from the likes of Michael Moore and the rest of the ‘hate America first’ crowd. Perhaps you should try to come up with some original arguments. If you do, try to make them cogent, unlike the ones you have repeated above. Those are warn out and debunked. Their very premise misses the mark. Just like you did.

By the way, since you apparently loathe freedom and all that it entails, would you prefer communism? Dictatorship? what would work better than what we have done here in the States?

Finally, one quote deserves another. So here’s one for you to mull over as you extract that plunger from your throat… “An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.” H. L. Mencken.

Get a clue Ms. McLellan.

Posted by Al Kilya from on 12/07 at 09:01 AM

I was going to say that someone should cut off your head and shit down your throat, Mickey Z, but then you wouldn’t get to taste it.

You’re a piece of shit loser if you really think Ricky Williams is a hero and that Tillman should be eternally shamed for killing “brown” people who are hell-bent on world domination. When is the last time an American political leader stood up and said, “DEATH TO THE MIDDLE EAST!”? Your moral relativism is fucking disgusting. Have you been sucking Ted Rall’s cock?

Though I’m absofuckinglutely thrilled to hear Pat Tillman was an atheist.

Posted by Adam Scavone from New York, NY on 12/07 at 09:30 AM

Adam, I’m excited to be able to follow this thread. This must be what the back and forth between the founding fathers was like.

Posted by Greg Stricherz from Minneapolis, MN on 12/07 at 09:35 AM

Mickey, you are a piece of work. The last time you mentioned Pat Tillman, you wrote a piece called Osama bin Laden vs. Pat Tillman. Now you are comparing him to Ricky Williams and you ask what about the team Pat let down ? I guarantee no member of the AZ Cardinals felt let down by Pat. It amazes me how little you know about situations where you pretend to be an expert, and when I bring these up, you say they are old cliches and hide behind them. You see Ricky Williams was under contract with the Dolphins. He was in training camp earlier this year preaching to his teamates about how this was going to be “their year”. Then he just ups and leaves without any warning right before the season start leaving the Dolphins no chance of replacing him. Pat Tillman on the other hand was not under contract, he was considering signing a new one when he enlisted. The Cardinals were able to find a suitable repalcement. Pat left to defend his country and our freedom, Ricky left so he could smoke weed. I have no problem with Ricky doing what he did for whatever reason, but his reasons were selfish. When Pat was stationed in Washington in 2003, the Cardinals played a game in Seattle. Pat drove to the game and sat with the owners and met with the coaches and players who welcomed him with open arms. This all brings me to one simple conclusion. Mickey has no idea what he is talking about, and uses people like Pat Tillman to bring attention to himself.

MICKEY IS A MEDIA PIMP WHO PROSTITUTIONALIZES AMERCIAN HEROES LIKE PAT TILLMAN FOR HIS OWN GAIN. Shame on you Mickey, Satan has an open cell for you in hell.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Glendale, AZ on 12/07 at 11:28 AM

Jeff Reichard apparently read post No. 4 above.

Posted by Al Kilya from hell, or close to it on 12/07 at 11:49 AM

Re #15 above:

To protect its national interests, which is to say the profits of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Corporation, in 1954 the CIA was sine qua non in coup d’etat deposing the first and only duly elected president, Mossadegh in Iran. The Iranian people subsequently until the revolution in 1979, lived lives of abject poverty, terrorized by the Shah’s Savak secret police. Tens of thousands were imprisoned and tortured. More than 3,000 murdered. Let me pause, place my hand on heart, and wave the flag…

In 1953, to protect its national interests, which is to say the profits of the American Fruit Company, the CIA was sine qua non in deposing the duly elected President Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala. Over the course of the next 30 years Guatemalan peasants were imprisoned, tortured, and disappeared. More than 200,000 were murdered. On the upside, America protected its national interest.

In 1973, to protect its national interests, which is to say the profits of Anaconda Copper and other multinational corporations, the CIA was instrumental in the murder of the duly elected President Allende in Chile. In his stead the US installed and backed to the hilt the dictatorial Pinochet, who ruled for three decades with an iron fist, imprisoning tens of thousands, disappearing more than 3,000. Ironically enough, and entirely lost on Americans, the coup took place on September 11 of that year.

President Sukarno was a national hero for liberating Indonesia from the Dutch colonialists in 1948. In 1965, the US backed a coup d’etat by Suharto, deposing him. Perhaps 1.5 million Indonesians were slaughtered in the unrest. American bestowal of democracy and freedom on the rest of this earth is a marvel to behold.

These incidents are not anomalies, but rather exemplary of US foreign policy. That’s what’s meant by the national interest. That’s not my interest. I believe in democracy, and not only for Americans, but even for dusky-hued foreigners; and not corporatocracy.

One last word about upsetting a progressive for my advocation of pot-smoking. This is such an elementary issue of freedom, it’s astonishing one even has to make the argument. Is it necessary to point out that tobacco kills 430,000 Americans a year, alcohol tens of thousands more, while marijuana has never been cited as responsible for a single fatality? While the former drugs are sanctioned and heavily advertised and the latter practically THE prohibitied?

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/07 at 12:32 PM

Enough about Pat Tillman already. No matter what your feelings about the US presence in Afghanistan, his death was a total waste. If you don’t know by now that he was killed by friendly fire, mostly due to the bungling of his superior, read this heartbreaking two-part series from the Washington Post last weekend. From the beginning of the story, an excerpt:

“‘Cease fire! Friendlies!’ Tillman cried out.

Smoke drifted from a signal grenade Tillman had detonated minutes before in a desperate bid to show his platoon members they were shooting the wrong men. The firing had stopped. Tillman had stood up, chattering in relief. Then the machine gun bursts erupted again.”

Here’s the link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35717-2004Dec4.html

Finally, to those of your sliming Mickey Z, you might want to reconsider because he may not be packing but he’s an accomplished martial artist.

Posted by Russ Wellen from Sleepy Hollow, New York on 12/07 at 12:59 PM

RE: #20 above.

Oh, now I get it Ms. McLellan, America is bad, bad, bad. Corporations too are bad, bad, bad. Only the CIA and American foreign policy result in people of different cultrures and nationalities being tortured, murdered and maimed. In fact the USA actively seeks out peace loving peoples for the sole purpose of putting bullets into their heads and bodies. (I am suprised you didn’t say that was the real reason Tillman bailed on his NFL millions rather than his expressed desire to serve his country.) Why don’t you post something about the military industrial complex fueling our warlike desires just so they can make more money by manufacturing planes, bullets and other military hardware to kill foreign peoples.

Finally, one note on your claim that marijuana has never been cited as being responsible for causing a single fatality. You are simply wrong. Their are 100’s of chemicals involved in the burning of marijuana. Are you to have me believe none of them are potentially harmful to the human body? Do you think marijuana doesn’t affect lungs and an adverse manner? Do you really believe that nobody has crashed ever a car while driving stoned resulting in someone’s death? Your arguments are laughable. Going with your logic we should let children just smoke pot with reckless abandon. I guess you have not read any studies on the negative aspects of marijuana. In fact I am certain you haven’t.... Judging from your posts, your arguments merely parrot blubs of mindless drivel from some ultra liberal treatise you were snookered into reading. With respect to marijuana, you have offered not facts. You simply repeated the standard high school, pro drug, debate team argument.

Now unplug your laptop, close it, and smack yourself in the head with it. That is the only beneficial usage I can think of for it.

Posted by Al Kilya from hell, or close to it on 12/07 at 02:24 PM

Response To #20:

Tracy,

I believe that you have misunderstood the nature of this thread. Its not about foriegn policy or the legality of marijuana. It’s about comparing two individuals choices. I don’t completely support the US actions in Iraq nor do I really care about whether you like to get high or not. To truly understand what this thread is about you have to break it down to its most simple elements. Pat Tillman did not concern himself about events that took place 15 to 100 years ago. He felt the need to serve and he did. Also, as far as the events surrounding his death, accident or not, he is still an American who sacrificed his life and his fortune for his country whether you agree or not thats what he felt he was doing. Forget about the politics of it all. Rickey Williams did not want to follow the rules put in place by the NFL and the US had nothing to do with the creation of those rules. So when you break it down to the most basic of underlying elements you can see that it was much more noble what Tillman did.

Posted by Chris from NJ on 12/07 at 03:14 PM

# 20 WOW ! I have read several responses from Tracy to other articles. And it is amazing to me that her responses always go back to foreign policy and the legalization of marijuana. Both of which have little to do with this article. The fact is Mickey and Tracy would make a nice couple based on how clueless they both are.

The point was made in this article - what did people say about Pat Tillman abandoning his team ? Why do you think that translates into the need for a history lesson on Iran.

Whether smoking weed is legal or not, Ricky knew the rules before he signed his multi million dollar deal. I don’t feel sorry for him.

Tracy - do you quote history lessons to your husband / boyfriend all day or are you single ? I am guessing nobody would put up with that which is why you are here spinning every article into a US foreign policy debate and pro-legalization platform. It’s just sad that you have to use Pat Tillman’s good name to do so.

Mickey and Tracy - it is a good thing that our founding fathers were not cowards like the two of you. Fortunately they did something about their situation and the result is - you live in a country where you have the freedom to write these things. But is does not give you the right to dishonor an American Hero.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Glendale, AZ on 12/07 at 03:52 PM

The founding fathers liked their ganja (and their slaves.)

Why do Americans love their founding fathers? Its not like they did something positive to change the existing situation - like Mazzini in Italy, or Lenin, or even John A. McDonald. They simply were capitalists who didnt want to pay taxes to England and wanted to own slaves. If America has a real fouding father it is Lincoln, but neocons revere him not for stopping slavery or being gay,(yes Lincoln was gay) but for being a dictator. The way I see it, only he and FDR are worth rememebring, perhaps Bobby Byrd. Otherwise the political class in America has been rotten from the start.

The founding fathers, contrary to what was said, were potheads like many “philosophes” at the time of the Enlightenment, Ricky Williams-style ritual pot puffers. I bet even that the Ben Franklins with their ganja and opposition to slavery were more progressive than the slave owning drunks.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/07 at 04:23 PM

WOW ! Maybe j cumming can join Tracy and Mickey in a 3-some, not sure Mickey could handle 2 woman(if that’s what you call yourselves) at once. Listen up J, the point is this, I don’t care if our founding fathers smoked weed, raped slaves or whatever. The point is they were not cowards like Mickey, Tracy and you. Instead of crying about their problems with their homeland, they rose up and did something about it. If you 3 were here in America when that went down, we would still be England and paying taxes on our tea and we would all have horrible teeth. My point is simple, thank god for people like Pat Tillman, he gives you assholes something to whine about.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Glendale, AZ on 12/07 at 04:41 PM

What Kilya said in #22 above about America and corporations...bingo, perfectisimo. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Ditto the monstrous US war machine and profits for arms manufacturers. The CEO of Lockheed made something on the order of $93 million last year. If “people” like Kilya don’t see something radically wrong with this on its face, I don’t know what to say. What, Kilya, are you part of the military-industrial cabal?

As for the supposition that Tillman should be lauded and respected for supposedly giving up all to serve his country, I think that’s laughable. I feel bad for Tillman for being terribly naive - as I do for most soldiers, who don’t know that they are “serving” not to protect their country and freedom, but to serve empire and imperialism.

As for Ricky Williams not following rules, the rules are stupid and shouldn’t be followed. One has a moral obligation, said Thoreau, a true patriot and great American, to disobey unjust laws and rules.

Incidentally, JOrdy, I have it from numerous reliable sources that though both Jefferson and Washington grew hemp, they grew the industrial variety, and there is no proof anywhere that either of them indulged in the psychoactive variety.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/07 at 07:41 PM

The difference in how the media is treating Ricky Williams and Pat Tillman is not based on race. Ricky left his team for himself. Pat left his team for you, the rest of America, and all the black, brown, and white people who died on 9/11. Pat left his team to join another, larger, and much more important one. To suggest that Pat left the NFL to kill brown people is just sad. I will admit that I think that there is some discrimination in the media but not in this situation. Focus on complaining about T.O.’s MNF controversy.

Posted by Joe Rice from St. Louis, MO on 12/07 at 07:46 PM

Would the Vietnamese have been justified in giving up all and coming over here and blowing things up like Tillman did in response to a mere 3,000 deaths? What about the Chileans after the CIA assassinated Allende in 1973? The Indonesians after the US installed Suharto to rule with tyranny and rob the treasury of hundreds of billions? Patiotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings, and I guess the reason the warmongers at this site make absolutely no reference to the comparatively monstrous crimes of US foreign policy - Vietnam only the most obvious - is because there is no defense.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/07 at 07:57 PM

Jordy, I am not monitoring you or this site day and night for the public welfare. I don’t care about your worthless hide that much.

I started reading a few months ago because I like progressive sites. It dawned on me over time that you people are BAD for progressive causes. You and the rest of the smug assholes who write on this site are so offensive that you’re driving people AWAY from progressive causes. Just try to deny it.

It doesn’t matter if you’re right. This means you too, Tracy and Mickey. It doesn’t matter if you’re right, although usually you aren’t. If you’re a smug asshole, no one cares whether you’re right. Just look at how many good friends you people made today. What do you think you’re accomplishing?

For a guy who spends his days talking about politics, you sure seem to know nothing about politics. Even Hitler and Stalin knew how to be charming. Not you people. It’s all asshole, all the time.

I’ll find a different site.

Posted by Andrew from here on 12/07 at 08:42 PM

Don’t let the door hit you in the asshole Andrew. I’ll try to buff up my image, see if I can make myself more like my progressive ideals, Hitler and Stalin. I fear it’s going to be difficult.

It’s not a matter of being right, or taking pride in being a smug asshole. It’s a matter of struggling against an oppressive tyranny: and that’s precisely what the American military monster is!

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/07 at 08:56 PM

Andrew....which public are you monitoring this for? And why would any progressive have a problem with Aish HaTorah being called Mooonies, when they are? Even Sharon is scared of them, I’m told.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/07 at 09:10 PM

Again, Jordy, it doesn’t matter if you’re right. It doesn’t matter if Aish Hatorah are the Jewish Moonies. What did you accomplish by saying it? The vast majority of Americans are religious. Here you come along with a political agenda which you are trying to advance by pissing on everyone else’s beliefs. You are doomed to failure.

And, Tracy, it doesn’t matter if the US was wrong to oust Mossadegh in 1954. Of course they were wrong. But it doesn’t matter if you’re right if you can’t convince anyone. If people think you’re an asshole, they don’t care what you have to say, except to argue against it. That’s human nature. Can you think of a single person EVER that you convinced to see things your way, someone who started out seeing things differently? I doubt you can. I doubt any of you can, if you’re honest about it.

People who actually accomplish something in the political realm, who actually get something done, don’t do it by being assholes. They do it with charm and persuasion, attributes you are entirely lacking.

I came to this web site fully prepared to be pleased, but you’ve convinced me that all of you are hopelessly arrogant, offensive and not nearly as smart as you obviously think you are. Losers.

My biggest complaint with all of you is that, altough we have similar political views, you are actively harming those causes. As I see it, every day this web page is in existence moves the world just a little further to the right.

Posted by Andrew from on 12/07 at 10:11 PM

Tracy. I do not want to get off the subject. I have a problem with “hypocrisy” being applied to the media coverage between Ricky and Pat. Ricky’s decision was selfish; Pat’s was not. That is the difference. Personally, I do not have a problem with what Ricky did. It is his life and he has a right to do what makes him happy. I think he would be a cool guy to hang out with. Find hypocrisy and racism in something else, not here. I agree with your other comments. I am not a blind patriot and I cannot defend recent US foreign policy. It is hypocritical for the US to promote democracy and freedom while backing antidemocratic and repressive governments.

Posted by Joseph Rice from on 12/07 at 10:29 PM

Andrew is truly an American in that he worries about how the po’folks are gonna respond to what I’m saying. Aish are a political cult mostly in Israel anyway, so why Andrew had a problem with me saying that is quizzical. Most Americans are religous yes, because of the separation of church and state allows freedom OF religion. Most folks who talk about religion being the driving force probably also hate Episcopalians and Reform Jews who have both lobbied against the war, or scientologists lobbying against pharmeceuticals, or Satanists lobbying for fun, (Anton LaVey represents) for that matter the National Council of Churches, or C.A.I.R.

I am not anti-religous, just against, to quote Dylan “non believers speaking in forked tongues who say they are talking for Jesus.” Jesus was clearly, as an evangelical letter to World Net Daily that I quoted on my website says, a communist. As was Mohammed, Moses, even Aleister Crowley was an anarchist.

So religion can cut either way.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/07 at 11:09 PM

On the world moving right, perhaps America is, but the rest of the world is moving left, at the very least to more social democracy. Culturally as well, the world is moving left, aside from the States, which would need a Robespierre and a revolution to move left.

And in terms of achievement, I just got invited to adress a conference of radicals in South Africa, through my writings here and on my site. I am close to getting a book of my columns published, and working on a book that I mentioned in a column here, which got four dozen responses about 100 different movies (a dictionary of antiwar cinema.) I also get to be connected, in some fashion, with a “digital international,” something that we aer only beginning to realize how powerful it may be. I also, and i feel like a drunken braggart but bear with me - am currently working on something that may play a concrete role in ending the Iraq war (helping Americans get refugee status in Canada)

Posted by j cummings from on 12/07 at 11:24 PM

“People who actually accomplish something in the political realm, who actually get something done, don’t do it by being assholes.” Like who? Joe Lieberman? John McCain? Joe Biden? Ad nauseum? Yeah right.

The point about the US deposing the likes of Arbenz in 1953 is that it is a barometer of what it’s doing now - in Iraq for example. In Colombia. Ad infinitum.

It’s not pleasant being right about these things. On the contrary. But it is being in service to truth. I fully admit to being a loser. But compared to those that are winners in this society, President Bush to take the most obvious example, in many ways, that’s almost a badge of honor. Bow to the state, said Nietzsche, and it’ll give you anything. Well I don’t and won’t bow.

Jordy, about anti-war movies. I just saw Cold Mountain, and I would definitely call it anti-war, which is to say, pro-love.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/07 at 11:59 PM

RE: 27 above

A couple of quick points Tracy:

1. I am not part of the military-industrial cabal, but I am a card carrying member of the vast right wing conspiracy. Do you hate America? From your posts I gather you do.

2. You apparently know nothing about Pat Tillman beyond what was printed in the headlines. In your post No. 27 above, you describe Tillman as terribly naive. Yet everyone who knew him told the press stories that showed he was more than an athlete, he was very engaged as a thinker and purposely sought reading materials of varying and disparate philosophies for his personal enlightenment. I venture to guess he could readily quote Thoreau of the top of his head, unlike you, who I bet reaches for the “Great Quotes” reference book to find a suitable quote for every post you make.

3. Perhaps you could make more critical arguments if you stopped spouting off Oliver Stone/JFK like conspiracy arguments. There is no doubt the U.S. government has made many missteps in foreign policy thoughout this nation’s history. Some actions of this country were just outright wrong and criminal. But you have to put these actions in historical context, which you never do Tracy. For example, the U.S. did back UBL in the 80’s in Afganistan because he was fighting Russia. And at that time, Russia was our sworn enemy who would have liked to obliterate us. Same thing with vietnam, darling. You think we went to war in Indochina so the military complex could make more money? Have you ever heard of the domino theory. Again, we were in a cold war with Russia. Read a histroy book. It is tiresome trying to set you straight.

4. It is astounding to me that you believe our efforts to bring peace and democracy to Afganistan and Iraq are part of a greater desire for Imperialism and Empire building. Tracy, was it Imerperialism and Empire building that the U.S. engaged in when we occupied both Germany and Japan following WWII until those countries were stable?

Your intractable attitude is perfectly in line with today’s Democractic party. Yours and the party’s positions are based on extreme views which are not shared by the majority, yet you are unyielding advocacy of them. Perhaps that is why the once great Democratic party has continued to lose out in both state and federal elections in the last 10 years.

Posted by Al Kilya from hell on 12/08 at 08:52 AM

It is because I love America that I point out as far as I can that the American government is the biggest terrorist organization on the face of the planet. It’s not even close. American imperialism, militarism, and its corporate hegemony, I believe, are responsible for the vast majority of the world’s problem. I think it’s beyond egregious that the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Rush Limbaigh! sign contracts for $265 million over 6 years, while half the world’s population, 3 billion people survive on less than US $2 a day. That the 400 “richest” people in the world hold equivalent wealth to this segment of the population. Anybody who can’t see there is something dreadfully wrong about this on its face lacks the merest jot of humanity.

I stand by my assertion that Tillman was naive, as I do about everyone in the military who thinks they are defending the mirage of democracy that exists in the US, rather than the reality: empire. I’ll admit I don’t know much about Tillman. I doubt seriously he could quote Thoreau, for if he could I don’t think he would have done such a foolish thing.

“The U.S. government has made many missteps in foreign policy thoughout this nation’s history. Some actions of this country were just outright wrong and criminal.” Oops sorry; won’t do it again. Three million dead in Indochina. Three thousand in Chile, tens of thousand imprisoned and tortured. Staunch support for Pinochet. Two hundred thousand dead in Guatemala. Terror is El Salvador and Nicaragua. Terror in Indonesia and Iran, Iraq and Israel and Palestine and everywhere else. Didn’t mean to. Democracy makes occasional errors. But just let any other country make even a hint of the “mistakes” (as opposed to vicious aggression) and see.

Russia was largely a blown up bogeyman that was used as an excuse to perpetuate the permanent wartime economy instituted by Truman. Just as the atom bombs dropped on Japan were a demonstration to Russia. When it dissolved in 1989, what happened to the peace dividend? It disappeared into the next convenient bogeyman, terrorism, the war on drugs. the war du jour. And we waste as many resources on “defense” since as before.

You’re being facetious about Vietnam, right?

I have voted since I became eligible in 1980, until this year, when I sat it out because Nader did not make the ballot in Illinois. I have never voted for the Democratic nominee for president; and with the exception of the Paul Wellstones, Russ Feingolds, and Cynthia McKinneys, have very little use for Democrats.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/08 at 12:58 PM

Incidentally, it just so happens I am reading a history book. Rereading actually. “Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII,” by William Blum. There are more than 50 of them.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/08 at 01:21 PM

Not a single reputable historian, not even Henry Kissinger or Arthur Schlesinger, still maintain that there was a “domino theory.” Reagan himself said that Vietnam was a waste of time. Some right wingers say if America had not left, there would be no Pol Pot. It is well known that Pol Pot would not have existed without America destroying Cambodia, a constitutional monarchy with a relatively progressive social system. America, of course, also supported Pol Pot after Vietnam overthrew him.

Its not about right or left (though lefties like us would argue that profit creates war, plenty of right wingers argue that the state creates war -as libertarians and socialists work together on this one, we see a synthesis) - it is about right or wrong. See for example ex-Wall Street Journal columnist and staunch Republican Paul Craig Roberts columns at Counterpunch and Antiwar.com recently.

Right wingers are supposed to be free market capitalists, right? What is free market capitalist about giving no bid contracts (as in Nam and Iraq, Kellog Brown and Root - same company) to friendly companies? What is free market capitalist abour revolving doors between Carlyle Group, Haliburton and the DOD, etc. It is “corporate socialism” as Nader put it, not capitalism.

A true right winger, economic at least, should have big problems with Bush’s deficits and Patriot Act. A true conservative, reading the original conservative text, Burke on the French Revolution would have to find something disturbing about living in a country that regularly, even brazenly uses torture.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/08 at 03:02 PM

Tracy, thanks for clearing up the fact that Russia was “largely a blown up bogeyman.” I did not realize that. I guess I was silly for having concerns of a nuclear exchange during the cold war. I guess we really had nothing to worry about in the early 60’s when Khrushchev parked a missile base on Cuba! (less than 100 miles away from where I grew up in Florida.)

I conclude this post dripping of sarcasm by paraphrasing Zell Miller, the great former Governor of and Senator from Georgia (where I also lived briefly as a child):

Tracy, what did you think Russia would have put in the tips of those missiles parked in Cuba? SPITBALLS?!?!?!?!?!!!?!?!?

Posted by Al Kilya from limbo on 12/08 at 05:12 PM

What do you think was in US missiles in Turkey, there long before the USSR made its move in Cuba, pointed at the USSR and about the same distance? Kilya I think you ought to get a grip on action and reaction, point and counterpoint.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/08 at 07:15 PM

I differ slightly with Tracey here - though I agree that the Cuban Missile Crisis - and for that matter the erecting of the Berlin Wall - were squarely Kennedy’s fault, not so much ideological but the fact that Kennedy made Bush loo klike a dove. His Ich Bein Ein Berliner speech was truly a dangerous provocation. East Germany and West Germany were on the verge of forming a federation. Kennedy fucked that up.

Nevertheless, it cannot be denied that the Soviet Union was an Imperial powerand not a progressive power, in Eastern Europe. I will refer to an essay- I think it is online somewhere - by Chalmers Johnson called the “Three Cold Wars.” Russia WAS a bogeyman and an Imperial power in Eastern Europe. American policy, which was mostly supporting dissidents, including Trotskyites and anarchists, in Eastern Europe, was just - if not fought for just reasons (i.e. opening up markets, not fighting tyranny)...but less so than the US - West Germany, the Benelux countries and particularly Scandinavia did much good in helping to free Eastern Europe from Soviet Imperialism.

The other two cold wars were not just. The first being the US war on popular revolutions in Latin America. For a sum-up see James Petras at Counterpunch...None of these countries - even Castro wanted good relations with America, wanted to be in the Soviet orbit. They wanted non-alignment. The United States actively worked against centrist and even conservative democrats like Goulart in the spirit of “fighting communism.” Nicaragua was similar, the Sandanistas being social democrats who actually were very pro-market, but against American penetration of their national bourgeoisie.

And that was where the second cold war went - dictating backing dictatorial Pakistan against democratic India in the 71 war, for example. Ho Chi Minh worked with the States during World War 2, and while Marxist was independent and very afraid of China. He sent letters to the State Department, etc asking for support. At the same time, he wanted to consolidate power independently, but clearly respected Roosevelt more than Stalin.

So it cant be said that either the Soviets (or China) were good guys, neither were the States. The victim were popular movements who were stabbed in the back on both sides of the Iron Curtain. The Soviets attempted to cause the Viet Cong to lose the Vietnam war, going against the propaganda that says the the VC were Soviet puppets. Likewise, the US broke a promise of air protection for the Hungarian revolution in 1956, of whose famous players included true marxists like Georgy Lukacs, later imprisoned in Dracula’s castle by the Stalinists, not dissimilar, in the words of Stalins biographer Robert Service (see The New Statesman) to Bush and Blair.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/08 at 07:59 PM

I didn’t say, and don’t believe the Soviets were good guys. I’m just saying the threat they posed - the “missile gap,” their military strength, their supposed imminent invasion of Western Europe, were always overblown for nefarious reasons

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 12/08 at 09:10 PM

Tracy, I have a firm grip on action and reaction, point and counterpoint. All one has to do is read this thread to see that I have repeatedly blistered your arse in several counterarguments. Some of which you have simply failed to address because there is no logical retort. (i.e. were post war occupations of Japan and Germany imperialistic actions???)

But I guess you will have that when dealing with someone whose positions are as extreme and as unyielding as yours. I mean, I at least conceded that throughout history, US foreign policy has gone awry - drastically in many instance. But in your view, US foreign policy has been and always will be an instrument of evil… the strings of which were and are being pulled by massive secret conspiracies…

Perhaps you need to get a grip on reality.

Posted by Al Kilya from hell on 12/08 at 10:35 PM

Al Kilya, you may have different opinions than those of us here, but that has nothing to do with reality. For example, you probably support the Iraq war, and logically, thus, you support torture...oh, but you protest, the torture disgusted you, it was a few bad apples....but if you supported the war, you supported its ramifactions.

I don’t actually mean that. But my point is that your arguments are authoritarian, and leave no room for nuance or subtlety. Its funny, you probably learned this old Stalinist technique from being a David (Still Stalinist in his political style, if not his politics) Horowitz?

You claim to “hate” people who disagree with you. I don’t hate people who disagree with me, I feel sorry for what I see as their misguidedness, and hope that they can bring themselves to understand their/OUR complicity living a comfortable quality of life so the rest of the world can be poor.....but I don’t HATE people.

And while the occupations of Germany and Japan started off for understandable purposes, the US helped “rehabilitate” many Nazis and Japanese War criminals, to fight the left.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/08 at 11:08 PM

Tracey, I didn’t mean to imply you said that...but in many ways they were the good guys, compared with the States - it depends on who was in power. Krusschev was a great man who if he would not have been pushed out of power would not have crushed the Prague Spring. Kennedy was not....On the other hand, between Brezhnev and Nixon, they both were about as scary and looked alike.....

What I was saying is that the best way to argue against the “cold war triumphalism” as Johnson calls it, of modern neocons, and liberals for that matter - is to point out what you pointed out, but concede that there was indeed a kernel of truth in the cold war paranoia, vix how the Soviets took over East Europe. Blum is clear that the Soviets did this as a defensive mechanism, which I dont doubt - and they honestly believed they were doing the right thing. Perhaps history will prove that point ot be correct. However, it is understandable that US policy makers in the late forties saw the Soviets as Imperialists. The truth is somewhere in between - as I pointed out the Soviets really were - especially post Kruschev and pre Gorbachev - repressive especially in their sattelites, like Romania. But none of this threatened the United States.

On the other hand, the existance of a parallel socialist global economy, that was the stated goal of the Soviet Union, did threaten the US capitalist class. So even if Stalin sold out internationalism in the 30s, they saw his hand in every anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist movement, most of which - especially Cuba, regretted being in the Soviet orbit.

One thing I will say was heroic was the work ofthe Rosenbergs. It wouldnt matter if it was selling secrets to any country at all. The fact that Truman had a nuclear monopoly had to be stopped. The Rosenbergs and many American Communists had no illusions about the Soviet Union, but believed that the only way the world would not face nuclear annhiliation is with what became “MAD”

The US did not win the cold war. They are still fighting it in Latin America, and in the Ukraine ofr that matter. And it can’t be won, because no single country can dominate the planet in a globalized world. the dollar will sink soon....and that will actually be great for US manufacturing and bad for Wall Street.

Posted by j cummings from on 12/08 at 11:21 PM

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that Micky Z. got beat up a lot as a kid. Ricky used to have a website called runrickyrun.com. It should have been rickytakethemoneyandrun.com.

Posted by Bongo from Rhode Island on 12/19 at 08:41 PM

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Pat Tillman and Ricky Williams

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