Press Action

Thursday, September 16, 2004

Osama bin Laden vs. Pat Tillman

By Mickey Z.

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Posted 09/16 |

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He He

What we have here is a comparison between a Godly warrior who tries to serve Him as best he can and a warrior who wasn’t religious.

Posted by micah holmquist from on 09/16 at 05:37 PM

Another great article by the Mickster. Thanks Mick.

Posted by Colette from on 09/16 at 10:33 PM

Does the National Football League have any idea what it is doing? All of this mindless “patriotism” (real patriots don’t cheerlead the invasion of distant lands) is really disgusting. I’m going to say something here a lot of people will not like ... Pill Tillman got what was coming to him. His death served no purpose, it was meaningless, a waste of human flesh and spirit that would have been playing football and entertaining a lot of Americans who desperately need entertaining so they will not wake up and take a look around at the world—a world that is a mess, in large part, due to the government they passively support. Pat Tillman’s rumpled, rude, and cursing brother is emblematic of the average American male. Is it possible he believes his brother actually died for something? The US has a handle on a few blocks around government buildings in Kabul. The rest of the country is controlled by the Taliban and medieval warlords. Pat Tillman was seriously deluded. So are the dozen or so people—most of them cursing and rude, like Tillman’s brother—who emailed me after I wrote a piece on Tillman. The National Football League should be ashamed of itself. All it is doing is convincing millions of football males that there is something noble in donating your life to the neocons and multinational corporations. It’s like a retake on Rollerball.

Posted by Kurt from on 09/18 at 03:39 PM

Regaurdless of what sort of character Rich Tillman is, his quotes in the Mickey’s original are actually the most the most true to point…

Refreshing to have a respite from the usual saccharine Christian-ized take on death in America tha we usually get.

Posted by CK from on 09/18 at 09:23 PM

I find admirable to sacrifice so much for freedom.
Trying to stop Alqueda’s lunacy and freeing Afganistan from Talibans seem like a noble cause to me.
My sincere condoleances to the Tillman’s familly and all his friends.
Thanks Mickey.

Posted by Diane from on 09/18 at 10:34 PM

My sympathy goes to ALL who have lost a loved one but I have a question. Doesn’t it matter which side of the barrel of the gun you are on? Isn’t there a difference between the Occupier and the Occupied? Is there an aggressor and a victim? The bottom line is, DOES AN INVADED AND OCCUPIED NATION HAVE THE LEGAL AND MORAL RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE? If so, then it follows that we should be celebrating, honoring, having parades for, and building monuments to all of the Conscientious Objectors and also to all of the victims of aggression and occupation. PEACE, rosemarie

Posted by Rosemarie Jackowski from on 09/19 at 09:30 AM

Thank you Romarie for replying so kindly.
I’m a French Canadian, lefty at heart but who’s agenda turned to the right. I have been waiting long enough for the UN to move against bloody dictators. But the UN is populated with States members who are dictators...so, I will wait until the cows come home.
Each time a People tries to free it self on its own...it is hell on earth and it often fails. A few attempts have to take place. It happened in Iraq and all places on earth through out human history.
I come from the country, deep in the bush. I remember nightmarish stories of big family where kids were badly abused by dad, mom, grand-pa, uncles…
We can just watch and talk about it not go there because it is their house or we can go in there by force to remove the abusive adults and to try to help the traumatized kids. Some of the family victims will rebel very aggressively against their “liberators” (police, social workers, caring neighbours even against a concerned aunt) . It is always a huge mess for a long time after simply because we are dealing with human beings, not perfect movie scenarios. Finally some of those kids will become monsters or suicidal later, for sure.
I think if a People has been in cage for a short time, “liberation” can be “easy” enough...but in cases where the abuse has been for decades; one need hope, faith, luck and a strong will to help no matter what. Because it will certainly turn into a morass before it gets better.
We can call the act of rescuing a group of humans who’s right are violated everyday of their existence “invasion” or “rescue”.
But for sure very few will endorse such a tough enterprise because it is ugly.

Posted by Diane from on 09/19 at 12:05 PM

Dianne,

Do you really believe the US has either the right or ability to rid the world of dictatorships? I agree about the UN, and it is the US who has been - in helping seat Pol Pot, blocking international law etc. - that has helped in its demise.

I am all for fighting dictators. The US does not do that. It finds “worthy” victims in countries that are deemed misbehaving, and “unworthy” victims in countries that are pals. So Kurds in Saddam’s Iraq are “worthy,” while in Turkey are “unworthy” etc.

No one denies that Saddam Hussein’s disapearance, taken on a detached level is a good thing. What people question is the means in which the US is ABUSING the concept of fighting tyranny in order to redesign the world away from the cosmopolitan, tyrant-free world envisioned by the UN founders, and towards a world run by a multiplicity of corrupt police states.

So, who will save the Americans from Bush? I think they are worthy victims. Living in Quebec, where I’m from, with its social gains, you may not realize how ugly life is in America. As Gilles Duceppe said, “What right do they have to decide who is worth liberating?”

Posted by j cummings from on 09/19 at 12:56 PM

Hi J.
Merci pour ta reponse, mon ami-e-.

Everyone’s first right is life. I will “grab” the “right” to intervene if I see a neighbour beat and rape his kids or wife or husband, even… I might even get some bruises or get killed… There would be an ability to rid the world of dictators, one by one if the strong democracies of the world could agree on that...however everyone has an agenda like France… I think everyone is worthy of living and being protected, yes. You, me, our kids and brothers and sisters around the world. The UN is corrupted to the bone, J. Look at their records, they meet in fancy closes and fancy hotels, they have photo ops, they talk...they protect killers...Sudan, Rwanda, Nigeria, Somalia… I am not paying attention to Bush’s annoying grimaces anymore, I am focusing on my Iraqis friends who want freedom so peace can follow. Gilles Duceppe may ask this question for ever if he wants, this way; he will never have to make tough choices and do the dirty work. Have you ever save someone’s life while others were watching or even asking you not to get involved?

My apologies Rosemarie, for the typo.

Posted by Diane from on 09/19 at 01:41 PM

I am back. I had to go out into the woods to pick apples. Intervention to protect someone from evil is a good thing. The people in the U.S. need some intervention from the outside. The citizens of the U.S. need some freedom so that they can have livable wages, health care, freedom from homelessness, etc. We need the freedom to not have to live in an EMPIRE, with all of the evil that is always part of an empire. The intervention will have to come from outside of the U.S. because most U.S. citizens don’t have a clue. When the intervention comes, I hope that it will NOT be in the form of bombs, DU, torture chambers, etc. Maybe we need someone who can figure out how to start beaming radio or TV signals in, that will tell the people the truth. Also we need a worldwide, total boycott of any nation that ever bombs civilians. Every time that anyone, anywhere in the world buys any U.S. product, he is supporting the War economy. PEACE, rosemarie

Posted by Rosemarie Jackowski from on 09/19 at 04:17 PM

Rose,
here, check this out! Simple recipes for freedom and relative peace.

Posted by Diane from on 09/19 at 04:35 PM

For how to understand Iraq, Dianne, see Slavoj Zizek’s “Iraq a Borrowed Kettle” or Noam Chomky’s “Hegemony or Survival.” or as a precis, my piece here on Press Action “radical double blackmail.”

I don’t neccesarily, like some, place my hopes in the fundamentalist resistance (though one cannot but grin morbidly at how America is getting its ass kicked, a defeat for the empire is a victory for the republic...), nor do I with the collaborators, or the ex-Ba’athists.

America has been at war with Iraq for 14 years. Between the “gulf war” and the recent adventure, there were genocidal sanctions and bombings nearly monthly. America owes Iraq, but big.

The only way there will be peace there is if America is forced to exist, to be replaced by a UN/international (Arab League) force for six months to oversee elections - and a strong international non-governmenal presence to ensure no move back to dictatorship. Ralph Nader has talked about this, a “smart withdrawl.” For details, see Richard Falk or Lloyd Axworthy.

Posted by j cummings from on 09/19 at 06:18 PM

I cannot believe that this is even a thought in anyone’s mind. To compare a hero to a loser of all time. This is a disgrace I could not even read this website to see what it is about because the title is so disturbing!!! America should have more respect for our soldiers and our country and never be compared to a terriost!!!!!

Posted by jcallaway from on 09/19 at 07:25 PM

Real heroes don’t use DU, cluster bombs, land mines, torture chambers, assassination plots, covert actions, nuclear bombs, humiliation, fear, rape, etc. Real heroes don’t bomb unarmed civilians! PEACE, rosemarie

Posted by Rosemarie Jackowski from on 09/19 at 07:59 PM

The whole idea of the piece was to smash the concept of “heroes.” Osama, Tillman, whoever.

Posted by Mickey Z from on 09/19 at 08:59 PM

A piece missing from the analogy of the abusing parents is that for years and years the United States aided and abetted the parents (Saddam Hussein) in his crimes with massive armaments and financial aid. This is the rule not the exception in US foreign afairs. Years later all of a sudden the US is aghast at the abused children and now wants to save them. Hypocrisy. US sanctions killed perhaps 1.5 million Iraqis half of them children. In Vietnam the US slaughtered 3 million, millions more wounded, and devastated the land. The people are to this day losing limbs to unexploded landmines and children suffering birth defects to Agent Orange. Look at the hundreds that have been murdered this week in Iraq, many, who knows how many, women and children. I don’t believe a goddam word the Pentagon says about them being “insurgents.” The word itself an absurdity. As if Iraqi nationals are insurgents in their own country.

I wonder how bad we do have it in the United States. I’ve been reading about the European social democracies and it seems the government services they provide are superb. I would love to leave the godforsaken United States and go to Amsterdam. Apparently however it’s very difficult to stay there unless you have a lot of money or are a student. They don’t welcome foreigners precisely because they are afraid their social services will bear their burden. Does anyone know if Canada is more accepting of foreign nationals?

Tillman was deluded to give up what he had - for a lie. Kurt’s comments are trenchant as usual.

The American government is terrorist and nothing but. It is, as Nelson Mandela said, the greatest threat to world peace.

And Rosemarie’s comments are exceptionally wise too, as always. Thanks Rose.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 09/19 at 09:09 PM

Mickey Z, I agree that the concept of “heroes” is a controversial one and that academics sometimes make an appealing argument against the practice of “hero respect”. In a perfect world, I would agree; however, the Empire and its war advocates have: most of the money, all of the weapon systems, monuments, parades, control of the media, armies of people in spiffy uniforms with shiny brass emblems, etc., and we wonder why our voices are not being heard. I say that we need to take over the monuments to war and make them PEACE monuments. We need to declare a national “BILL BLUM DAY”. We need to have parades for all of the CO’s. I have a lot of heroes. My daughter, Christine, is a hero to me. You are hero to me. PEACE, rosemarie

Posted by Rosemarie Jackowski from on 09/20 at 02:37 PM

WOW ! Unbelievable !! Pat Tillman, saw the events of 9-11, the next day records an interview discussing what the flag stands for, how others have died to defend the liberties that thousands died for when trying to obtain those rights in the 1st place, and how he has not done anything to earn those rights. And he decides he will go to war to defend our country and the liberties afforded to all Americans. And some how, there are people here who want to dishonor him, his sacrifice, and all others who have paid the ultimate price so Americans like us can sit in coffee shops and use our laptops to compare Pat and all the other Americans who have dies in the line of duty, to one of the worlds sickest citizens - Osama bin Laden. HE DIED FOR YOU !! Whoever said he got what was coming to him ? I suppose the same could be said for the people who lost their lives on 9-11 and those who died opening mail to find anthrax and so on. The same people who wrote these comments are afraid to post the real full name next to their words. So his brother wore an old shirt and swore a little during his speech. SO WHAT ! Do you know why ? It was because Pat did the same type of thing, it was a tribute to him. Pat died so we can take advantage of freedom of the press, freedom of religion etc. The very same principles this country was founded on. Pat makes me proud to be an American, the people responsible for the propaganda in the article and the disparaging comments make me ashamed to be an American.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Phoenix, AZ on 09/21 at 09:06 AM

Too often at Press Action, the very-aware readers bitch and moan about articles that don’t go far enough or state the “obvious” or are “comfortable.” To them, I offer Exhibit A: the comment just above. This is how many (if not most) Americans think (sic). They spew cliches and arequick to anger if the lies they’ve been fed are ever challenged. We can all pat ourselves on the back because we see past the hype and recognize Tillman’s death for what it was...but we must also reach out to those who have yet to develop what Proust called “new eyes.”

I don’t know about any of you, but I once would have bought the Tillman-as-hero legend hook, line, and sinker. Reading Chomsky, Zinn, et. al. helped point me in a new direction. It is in that spirit, I write what I write.

Posted by Mickey Z. from on 09/21 at 09:34 AM

For those Americans tired of reading false propaganda put forth by desparate authors seeking attention because their books do not sell I offer exhibit A - Pat Tillman vs. Osama bin Laden

Mr Z. (I am guessing his last name starts with something else) wrote this insightful statement:

Q. Who gave up a life of luxury and turned his back on millions to fight in the mountains and caves of Afghanistan for what he believed in and, as a result, is revered by millions as a hero?
A. Osama bin Laden.

true answer: Pat Tillman

The truth, which Mr. Z curiously forgot to report, is that Osama had a problem with the royal family in Saudi Arabia, so he took his millions and ran to the Sudan, when he was kicked out, he offered several other countries millions of dollars to live there and was rejected. The only reason he ended up back in Afghanistan, was because the Taliban needed his money. But millions of desperatley needed dollars was not enough. Osama had to agree to send a suicide bomber to kill the reigning leader of Afghanistan to appease the Taliban and earn the right to live in Afghanistan.

Not sure how that compares with a pro athlete who put his career and life on hold to defend his country. But I am sure Mr. Z. will spin this into some proganda for HIS benefit. Kudos to you sir.
Interested how you spin the truth in your own forum Mr. Z.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Phoenix, AZ on 09/21 at 10:50 AM

Need I say more?

(This guy has been sending me e-mails all day. I’d gladly dedciate the next 24 hours of my life to debating him but I’m too busy counting all the money this article has made me in terms of book sales.)

I’m outta here...check, please?

Posted by Mickey Z. from on 09/21 at 11:41 AM

Pat Tillman died for me in the same way Jesus did. The perpetrators of 9-11 should have been prosecuted criminally in a police action, and not by waging war on innocent civilians in Afghanistan. How many civilians died there? More than died on 9-11. But those are just unworthy victims, to borrow Chomsky’s formulation. This doesn’t even touch on the issue that the US, and the military that Tillman so supposedly nobly volunteered for, has been perpetrating atrocities all over the globe that make 9-11 look like an ice cream social. Vietnam is only the most obvious example. The US murdered more than 3 million Indochinese in a naked act of aggression, millions more seriously wounded, despoiled a once beautiful land, and Vietnamese are to this day losing limbs to unexploded landmines and children suffering serious birth defects to Agent Orange. Oops, noble democrats sometimes make mistakes. But we’ll let that pass. By the reasoning that asserts we were justified in bombing Afghanistan, it would be entirely right and proper that the Vietnamese, maybe along with their Chinese allies, ought to bomb the United States and level Washington. I too am ashamed to be an American. Ashamed that the CIA assassinated Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973, and ushered in the iron-fisted rule of Pinochet for three decades with strong US backing, resulting in the disappearance of 3,000 Chileans. Where’s the democracy in that? And that the US aided Suharto in his murderous uprising against the duly-elected government of Sukarno, a national hero, in Indonesia in 1965. Murdered Mossadeg in Iran in 1953, installing in his stead the murderous Shah and his Savak secret police force. Or murdered Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954, resulting in the slaughter of 200,000 Guatemalans over the next three decades. Supported Saddam Hussein right up till his invasion of Kuwait in 1991. Has supported Israeli repression of the Palestinians to the tune of $98 billion since its statehood. It was the US itself that created Osama bin Laden in 1979 to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Supported the government of El Salvador 1980-91 at the very time it murdered more than 100,000 of its citizens. How about the defenseless 600,000 Filipinos slaughtered 1898-1901? All that just for starters and not at all anomalous to the history of US foreign policy.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 09/21 at 11:42 AM

Rose? Rosemarie?
and others so angry and filled with hatred at the mighty US and GWB.

“Have you ever save someone’s life while others were watching or even asking you not to get involved?”
No one bothered answering this question, I see.

Dear Mickey Z. I am happy you are finally becoming rich with your book. It’s so much work.
As an visual artist working on justice and wars and democracies..., I don’t think I will ever be as fortunate as you are but I am having fun.

I am afraid the “concept” of heroe is only a empty concept when it comes to real heroes!

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 12:05 PM

Diane, you blithering idiot. Here’s some questions that also weren’t asked, nor answered:

Do the leaves of green stay greener through the autumn?
Does the color of the sun turn crimson red?
Are there many more in comfort understanding?
Is the movement in the head?

Proving exactly nothing.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 09/21 at 12:18 PM

The mighty US? $6.96 trillion in debt and adding $1.91 billion a day. Let’s see how long the US remains so mighty.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 09/21 at 12:26 PM

Pardon me, you resort to name calling now, Tracy?

Have you ever saved someone’s life?
I guess not, and no one has ever saved yours yet either...(?) You have a comfortable existence, I am glad for you.

What does blithering means, I am French and idiot you see?

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 12:26 PM

The bottom line is this, Pat Tillman paid the ultimate sacrifice for every American. And any American that dishonors him and/or his memory should be ashamed of themselves.
Mr. Zit did respond to my e-mail. He stopped when he had no response to the points I made. He refused to answer my questions. He is using Pat Tillman’s name to draw attention to himself. Pat saw the events of 9-11 and wanted to do something to help. So he left everything behind to join the Army and fight terrorism. Mr. Zit was in NYC when the WTC was bombed and wrote and article complaining about the use of the word Arab. The most significant attack on American soil in it’s history was taking place right outside his door and he writes an article crying about how Arabs are referred to and why don’t we refer to Swedes as Europeans. Pat was in the process of giving up everything for his country based on the people who died on 9-11. Mr. Zit who claims to have friends that died in the WTC, was busy defending the perpetrators. You are a real piece of work Mr. Zit, not to mention a coward. By the way - what is your real name ? Or will you continue to to cowardly hide behind Mickey Z ? I thought so.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Phoenix, AZ on 09/21 at 12:50 PM

Someone accuses us of being ANGRY...YOU CAN BET YOUR LIFE THAT I’M ANGRY...millions of innocent civilians slaughtered because of U.S. foreign policy...if you are not angry there is something wrong with you. Those are fellow human beings. The Pentagon does not even have the decency to refer to them as humans, just “COLLATERAL DAMAGE”. If you are not angry yet, look up the photos of babies born to Mothers who were exposed to U.S. DU. Everyone needs to go back and read Tracy’s comment #22. Thanks Tracy! PEACE, rosemarie

Posted by Rosemarie Jackowski from on 09/21 at 01:23 PM

Thank you Rosemarie for taking the time again. I’m also very angry but not at the same gang.
If you take all those murders commited in the past 100 years by gorvernments against their own people (autocracies), and you imagine a line of those bodies mesuring all 5 feet, you will be able to go four times around the planete. More deaths caused by governments against their own than by wars, amazing!
1- Freedom is a basic human right recognized by the United Nations and international treaties, and is the heart of social justice.
2- Freedom is an engine of economic and human development, and scientific and technological advancement.
3- Freedom ameliorates the problem of mass poverty.
4- Free people do not suffer from and never have had famines, and by theory, should not. Freedom is therefore a solution to hunger and famine.
5- Free people have the least internal violence, turmoil, and political instability.
6- Free people have virtually no government genocide and mass murder, and for good theoretical reasons. Freedom is therefore a solution to genocide and mass murder; the only practical means of making sure that “Never again!”
7- Free people do not make war on each other, and the greater the freedom within two nations, the less violence between them.
8- Freedom is a method of nonviolence--the most peaceful nations are those whose people are free.
Peace to you as well.

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 01:43 PM

Diane, your line of reasoning is historically innacurate. In fact, most of the deaths of the twentieth century can be attributed to an extension of capitalism, whose mantle was passed from the European powers to the USA, but is really a non-national enterprise. Capitalism supporterd Hitler until it was too late. Capitalism suppressed popular and democratic movements, and with few exceptions, the governments that capitalism set up were far more autocratic than any communist autocracy, Albania and North Korea excepted.

Fact is, your line of reasoning leads to the same point that we all make. Even if one accepts that the US has the right to make war, one has to accept that if it is not going to war to extend capitalism/imperialism, than it is going war to ameliorate past mistakes made in the name of capitalism and imperialism.

Look at the mass murders comitted over the last hundred years. Except for Stalin and Pol Pot, all were at the behest of, or with (Indonesia, Bangladesh, Naziism) capitalist help.

Of course the United States was built on genocide, but that is another issue.

And Tillman may have died for me, as I sure as hell don’t like Osama, but I don’t think the best way to get him and his Mafia is war. Look at the police efforts of Spain, for example. That is what one does. And any talk of how “they’re terrorists” etc etc etc is counterproductive. You want security? Change tactics....or watch China take over the world and US power eclipse, along with standard of living… It would fine by me…

Posted by j cummings from on 09/21 at 02:00 PM

Hi J,
I am just looking at the numbers in history not at an interpretation of it.

What would you do with dictators and the UN if you were the President of the strongest democracy in the world in 2004?

True however, all societies are built on blood and sweat, it goes way back to the caveman.
The word genocide was invented by an amazingly brave man called Raphael Lamkin. Check him out if you don’t know him.

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 02:19 PM

Pardon me Diane. What does saving someone’s life or having someone save my or your life have to do with the delusion of Pat Tillman enlisting to fight for US empire? Strange how all the knee-jerk patriots commenting at this site continuously ignore entirely US imperial crimes in Chile, El Salvador, Guatemala, Cuba, Vietnam, Indonesia, and on and on. Imperial atrocities by definition are something “they” do. When the US does it, even to an exponential degree, it is at worst an accident.

“Pat saw the events of 9-11?” How about the events of the above? Did Pat see those? Do you Mr. Reichard? Or are they down the memory hole? Tillman didn’t go to Afghanistan to protect my country or my freedom. Whether he knew it or not he went to extend US empire. There’s nothing heroic in that. At best it’s unfortunate that Tillman was so deluded to give up his lucrative career. Do the patriots commenting at this web site believe what? Nineteen Muslims, tired of picnicking, had nothing better to do that fly planes into skyscrapers. Do they ask what would compel such action. What about Palestinian “suicide bombers”? They too tired of picnicking? Pat Tillman paid no sacrifice for me. I certainly would have advised him against going to Afghanistan had he asked. I am ashamed at the stupidity of a compatriot who would think he was making such a sacrifice. If Tillman wanted to fight terrorism he was in the right place from the start and could have stayed home and fought the US government - the biggest terrorist in the world. Hands down, not even close.

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 09/21 at 04:57 PM

Tracy,
What are you doing to fight terrorism in the US ? Well, other than dishonoring our veterans. What did the events of 9-11 compel you to do ? Pat did die for you. So you can write lousy things about him in these types of forums. He died for freedom of speech. He died for all muslims, jews, christians etc. here in the US. He died for freedom of religion and so on. I am not looking to debate the U.S. ‘s foreign policy. Our foreign policy was not of Pat’s doing. How pathetic are you ? Did you see Pat’s interview on 9-12-04. I am guessing you did not. It’s real easy to attack the character of a guy after he is dead isn’t it ? You are a coward mam !!!
Why do you live in the U.S. if it is so bad ? What does your husband think about your views ?Obviously when JFK said “ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” You were still wondering what you country can do for you. It is a damn good thing all Americans do not share your views, or we would be all be speaking French.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Phoenix, AZ on 09/21 at 05:14 PM

“Pat Tillman paid no sacrifice for me.”
Maybe not for you, , you are right, Tracy.
Not for me either, I have it all just like you.

But ask the women in Afganistan what they think of Pat’s “senseless” sacrifice. What about all the girls, the teenagers, the homosexuals and the artists, musicians, teachers and doctors...?
How many people in Afganistan?

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 05:41 PM

Tracy,

Were you stoned when you wrote this ?

honestly

must be nice to live in a country where you can smoke a joint and be hung for it.

How do you think this country got that way ?

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Phoenix, AZ on 09/21 at 06:00 PM

That is a very good question..."What would you do if you were President?” Bill Blum’s answer is the best that I have ever read. 1st Apoligize to the world....2nd pay reparations to all of those we have hurt, etc. (Mr. Blum says it much better than I can.) After you’ve finished reading Blum, especially if you are in the military, you should read “War is a Racket” by Gen. Smedley Butler. At the time of his death Gen. Butler was the most decorated Marine in the USMC. Gen. Butler makes it very clear that we do not fight for freedom. We fight for the enrichment of corporations. PEACE, rosemarie

Posted by Rosemarie Jackowski from on 09/21 at 06:04 PM

How comforting it must be to Diane to have such faith in the American ideology...oops, sorry, I meant dream.

Pat Tillman is a perfect example of that ideology - one part of which is rampant individualism. A football player’s death is worth more than a war of aggression on a shit-poor country.

Everyone screams terror, murderers, swine, they must be destroyed. No one asks why it happened. Does Radical Islam commit these actions for the fun of it? Their cause is just.

The West has exploited, raped & pillaged Arab countries for the last hundred years. And you’re surprised they’re angry.

You’re living in a bubble, Diane, along with the Bush Regime & its groupies. You want/need to believe in a benign America. It’s a monstrous illusion

Posted by Ed Strong from on 09/21 at 06:08 PM

Rosemay,
We fougth for liberation in the WWII.
Remember the holocaust?
And what was the cold war about? Communism with big guns!
Look at your life style...imagine, now, living on 10% of your salary, which is what could happen if we follow the lefty rethoric.
You should thank W right now for the 90% of your salary you are enjoying, curtesy of W.
Without this war on terror, we can kiss good bye everything, starting by freedom and peace.
These Islamist terrorists make the Vietcong look like school boys.
Perhaps a nice joint would take care of some of the hatred errupting from deep in the soul of our lefty friends.

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 06:22 PM

Ed, you and me are both together in the same bubble that is called democracy. Very confortable and ours kids can dream of a futur. Not many places like this on earth. We are a handful really, who can think and talk freely.
Off rollerblading on my own, by a beautiful mosque, without a chaperon like I would need in SA.
Care to join me ED? Rosmary, Mickey...?

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 08:19 PM

Rollerblading works up a mighty thirst. After rollerblading down to 7/11. American’s love the freedom. Freedom of choice. Coke or Pepsi?

Posted by Tracy McLellan from on 09/21 at 09:57 PM

French or Italian wine, Europeen beer, or Perrier.

Did you know that I am a lefty contemporary visual artist currupted by the good sense of the Right lately...Unbelievvable! Left is wrong and
Right is right!

Posted by Diane from on 09/21 at 10:16 PM

What an amazing debate, cyber democracy in action.

To get back to one of Mick’s basic points: I agree that basic political re-education is badly needed. Case in point about the need for a humanizing political pedagogy: a friend who is heavily involved in labor issues and is a savvy and principled fighter for justice in that realm-- at the same time buys the whole line about the USA bringing democracy to the world. He told me about a paper he wrote about Al-Queda (Al-CIA-Duh) whose sources were “reliable”: USA Today and Newseek. I did not have the guts to set him straight. There are good (very bright) people out there who are being badly misled and misinformed. It’s difficult sometimes to renounce the lies our teacher (and culture) told us once we identify personally with them.

Posted by Rhino Rick from Tokyo, Japan on 09/22 at 06:26 AM

g. morning Rhino.

"I agree that basic political re-education is badly needed.
So do I! I am also preparing a “dossier” to that effect. Painting humans (mostly mothers, brothers, sisters...) picking up the bones of their love ones in mass graves...where you can find more 300 000 dead souls. Thanks to terrorizing and killing regime.

"humanizing political pedagogy"
Whatwouuld that be?

"I did not have the guts to set him straight."
I know what you mean. I often feel this way as well.

"There are good (very bright) people out there who are being badly misled and misinformed."
true. I know I met a few. I love this blog because of that.

"It’s difficult sometimes to renounce the lies"
Our mind would love to keep believing in comfortable lies like flying angels, virgin Mary, Zionist and American conspiracies or terrorists being just desperate boys trying to defend them self for the good of something.

Mickey’s point was the opposite of this I think:
Ossama and similar obsessed Jihadis are suffering from a dangerous pathology. Pat was just living his life the best he could.
Is Mickey Canadian?

Posted by Diane from on 09/22 at 08:40 AM

Dianne, as a Canadian, I wonder if you are authentic. We have had as part of our public education since the early twentieth century the dangers of Imperialism. Yet, you seem to honestly and unquestioningly believe in the US good intentions.

Where in Canada are you from? With what artistic community are you affiliated? Are you Francophone or Anglophone? I find your attitude hard to swallow, as a Canadian, un quebecois aussi.

Furthermore the concept of political pathology can probably be applied to Jihadis, but as noted, even if their methods are horrifying, their terror is what Sartre calls “microviolence” the violence of the oppressed, which is qualititavely and morally different from “macroviolence,” Imperial violence. Pat Tillman was also pathological in thinking that military action would do anything to make America more secure. And you yourself seem pathological in believing that the United States has the right to do what it does.

I hope you paint the victims of the United States, their direct victims in Vietnam and Iraq amounting to genocide.

Posted by j cummings from on 09/22 at 12:08 PM

Always question everything, A true rebel that way! There is a old saying in the Quran that says: Think, think and question everything. I have been questioning my lefty heart for the past 10 years.

What means authentic here? Something like “pure laine”?

"the US good intentions.”??? I don’t care that much about their intentions, there are so many, and many are in our interests to all. I care far more about human rights on the planet, that should keep me busy ‘til my last breath!

Quebecoise, pure laine with lots of Algonquin blood. Among my close friends are contemporary professional artists, much ahead of me in their career. Here is a second home for us.

One can’t be pathological, mon ami-e, only a condition can. Maybe you are refering to psycopathology however. But I don’t think you meant that Pat and I are psychopaths, right?

"I hope you paint the victims of the United States, their direct victims in Vietnam and Iraq amounting to genocide."

Yes, I do. I paint everyon even dogs. I hope I won’t ever have to paint your lovely face.

Tell me if ever you would like to see… I have been doing this for a year now. I even have a pro-American Iraqi blog where you are welcome to visit. Check Hammorabi.com Sam is our lovely host

Posted by Diane from on 09/22 at 12:38 PM

I find it incredulous that anyone could believe in human-rights and, with all knowledge, the ability of the United States to implement them. I don’t deny that there are dozens of countries that abuse human rights, including Canada. You keep skirting the question, which I will phrase carefully…

What information do you have that tells you that the United States has ever - or any great power - improved the human rights of a subject population? I don’t think you are a psychopath, I think you are either disingenous or incredibly, incredibly duped. Like Tillman. That is the saddest thing about American wars, that noble people get duped. Iraq under Allawi is worse than it was under Saddam Hussein.

In short, to believe in human rights and America’s ability to deliver them is somewhat like being a vegan who enjoys the odd T-bone. It confounds the imagination. Are you trying to be non-conformist, perhaps, among the uniformly “anti-american” (read- pro-American but against its government) Quebec community? I know a lot of Canucks who become Pro-American to be non-conformists....

Look inside yourself...why do you give moral support to terrorism?

Posted by j cummings from on 09/22 at 01:38 PM

All kinds of good stuff in here (puke). The title of he this piece - Osama bin Laden vs. Pat Tillman is disturbing in itself. I am so sick of listening to clueless “authors” who want to dishonor Pat Tillman and our other vets. Someone wrote
“The West has exploited, raped & pillaged Arab countries for the last hundred years. And you’re surprised they’re angry.”
Maybe so. We also defended them on how many occasions. And when Saddam led his troops into Kuwait to exploit, rape & pillage - who stepped up ?

When Russia invaded Afghanistan - who stepped up ?

I refuse to get into a debate about our foreign policy over the last 100 years.

Someone said the war in Iraq is about oil. Maybe it is, I really don’t know. I do know if the west did not figure out how to refine oil and use it, the Middle East would not have 2 pennies to rub together, let alone the 10 richest men in the world and then some.

Anyone who attacks Pat Tillman’s character and his memory, ought to be ashamed.

Mickey Z. told me in an email “this is still the best country, but it could be better”. So gcontribute something instead crying about it ! Also, try to know a little something about Pat’s decision before judging him.

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Phoenix, AZ on 09/22 at 01:49 PM

Jordy,
I like you.
At least you recognize my noble heart.
I looked in and out, do it all the time. Found out that perfection is not for this world. So, I’ll take what’s available. Politics, the organisation of human society, is a ruthless game I could never survive. Nothing is more flawed, just like any primates org...I found that we do mostly what we want as individuals. I also learned not to ever follow any collective hatred or passions...scary stuff!

Human rights are an old dream of mine, do you mind? Perhaps you have other priorities, which is great. I am just an artist. I have friends from all over, all ages, races, intelligence levels and opinions…
I only follow what’s in my heart, I use my mind to reason and organise the info. How do you do it? The bridge between the two is crucial for honesty. Hatred and fear are something one/you… could explore with an expert.
I am just a non-conformist among those who think differently. I enjoye our exchanges, I am always afraid you’re “gonna” insult me though, so far it’s not sooo bad.

Posted by Diane from on 09/22 at 02:02 PM

Pat Tillman vs. Mickey Z.

“My great grandfather was at Pearl Harbor, and a lot of my family has...gone and fought in wars, and I really haven’t done a damn thing as far as laying myself on the line like that.”

Pat Tillman - 9-12-04

As I sit typing this here in New York City, the radio is blaring news of hijacked planes crashing into the World Trade Center. Instantly, I feared for friends who work in the area (note: it turned out a few died). Next, overwhelmed by the inevitability I felt and the sound of F-16s circling in restricted air space, I made a mental laundry list of suspects. Most observers, of course, will reflexively start with the generic term: “Arab.” It’s enlightening that Westerners use that word to describe people as diverse as Yemenis and Syrians, but rarely use “European” to label both an Irishman and a Swede.

Mickey Z. 9-11-01

Posted by Jeff Reichard from Phoenix, AZ on 09/22 at 02:07 PM

Mickey seems to come from a good family of strong men.
I am not surprised.
When reaching 40’, something happens sometimes...for some of us. It happend earlier for Pat Tillan.
A few of my dear friends are soldiers, courageous men, lots of dept. I’d hate it if someone was trying to dishonor them, or any friend pasted away for that matter.

Posted by Diane from on 09/22 at 02:19 PM

Next entry: Solidarity Forever (NHL-Style)

Previous entry: A Desertion of Common Sense

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Thursday, September 16, 2004

Osama bin Laden vs. Pat Tillman

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