Wednesday, October 06, 2004

Rage Against the Mythical Machine: The Pentagon of People Power

By Mark Hand

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Posted 10/06 | Add a Comment

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  1. Bless you for doing this review, Mark. A “must” read for most, I’d say.  On page 213, Derrick notes that “Those who are not buying into the machine can’t beat the machine on its own terms either, without getting thugged.” The specific example he offers up has to do with the typical approach of groups like the ACLU in that frustrating vein.  They’re getting “nowhere fast” as he points out, and one of the books great contributions --just one of many, as Mark has underscored-- is its highlighting the importance of coming up with new paradigms for “stepping out” AND stepping up.  Blessings in solidarity, Ox

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/06  at  11:25 PM

  2. Dear Mark,

    Thank you so much for this wonderful review. I appreciate it a lot.

    And not only do I like it because you obviously like the book, but I also like it even more because you so obviously GOT it. I love the fact that you highlight exactly the things that I wanted to get across.

    thank you,

    Derrick

    Posted by derrick Jensen from  on  10/07  at  01:31 AM

  3. To your credit, Derrick, Welcome to the Machine includes much information on radio frequency tags, mind-reading machines, thought implantation, ubersoldiers, remote-controlled animals, nanotechnology, domestic control hover drones and other technologies that government/corporate America wants to use to control us. For my review, as I think you noticed, I wanted to focus on how you envision humans (and the rest of the living world) moving beyond this technology fetish. And that’s what I think is valuable about Welcome to the Machine. The book includes impressive research on the controlling technology but also offers the readers tips on how to overcome both the technology and the wrath of the ruling elite/bureaucrats who control investment in such techno-nonsense.

    Thank YOU for the book.

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  10/07  at  09:08 AM

  4. There’s an interesting tie-in among the Headlines on http://www.democracynow.org today respecting Derrick’s warnings about RFID chips...maniacal manifestations about to emerge in Virginia...vis-a-vis drivers licences.  Oxy

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/07  at  11:25 AM

  5. I haven’t read Jensen but one of the things that leads me to be skeptical - perhaps Mark or Richard can correct me - is he seems to be implying that it is the science/technology itself that is the problem, not how the state/corporate apparatus uses it.  This seems somewhat like a romantic HG Wells myth of bygone pre-technological humanity.  As far as I’m concerned science and technology are morally and politically neutral, it is the structures - panopticons - of power that are the problem.

    Is this Jensen’s view?  I am genuinely curious, and if its not, how am I incorrect?

    Posted by j cummings from  on  10/07  at  02:23 PM

  6. Jordy—Jensen addresses your question throughout the book, and I think he would disagree with your statement that “science and technology are morally and politically neutral.” I don’t have the book with me right now but can provide a sampling of his arguments later today.

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  10/07  at  02:34 PM

  7. Jensen’s view AND Draffan’s view AND my view is that the notion that “science and technology are morally and politically neutral” IS NOT TRUE. NOT by a longshot.  I highly recommend that everyone read WTTM to address this very crucial issue from an angle different than the one Jordy and others are clinging to....  I pray that that does not sound disrespectful.  However, it is such a fundamentally important point...and such a basic to be together on for the sake of movement in solidarity on all signficant issues...that taking advantage of WTTM’s eloquent rundown on this count...seems essential.  Blessings in solidarity, Richard P.S. I plan to submit a supplement to Mark’s fine review shortly, one that I hope will encourage more readers to connect with WTTM.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/07  at  03:12 PM

  8. If science and technology are not morally neutral, if they are the (manmade) evils...then what about the men who made them?  Even genetic engineering is a double-headed eagle.  I don’t think it so much “clinging” to an idea but seeing something that I take to be self evident, but as always I am opn to being wrong.

    Posted by j cummings from  on  10/07  at  07:33 PM

  9. It should be interesting to hear from you, Jordy, on this point.  For everyone.  After you’ve had a chance to review WTTM.  One of the most fascinating aspects of trying to recruit people, trying to organize solidarity, attempting to grow within the progressive community out of “progressive” concerns is the absolute wall one encounters when it comes to certain issues.  It’s wonderful to hear you say that you’re open.  Again, this is one of those issues where one cannot fall back onto the very American mantra of “Oh, he feels this way and I feel that way...and we’ve all got a right to our opinions.” That’s usually the opening for putting important concerns on the shelf, avoiding ugly confrontation.  The Left, I submit (once again), must come to terms on this count, must be willing to beat certain issues into the ground...and, then, go separate ways, if necessary.  I hope all readers will jump in on this core issue.  I pray that everyone will tackle what Derrick and George have laid out concerning the fundamental flaws in our beliefs about Science and Technology.  Vine De Loria Jr., by the way, in God Is Red does a wonderful job of touching upon many of the same points that WTTM underscores.  Best, Ox

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/07  at  09:55 PM

  10. Jordy, on page 124, Jensen writes: “The point is that we should never be deceived that technologies are neutral. They are controlled by those in power, which means those in power have the ability to gain access to information about those under their power, whether or not those under their power desire this information known. This information is then used to reward those the powerful choose to reward, and to harm those they wish to harm...”

    I think Jensen would agree with you that it’s the power structures that are the problem. If you get rid of these structures, the non-stop PURSUIT of technological innovation, which itself has harmful effects on us and the environment, would slow down or come to a halt.

    Jensen explains on page 40 that in our society, “It’s all about the rule of law, no matter which fundamentalist religion we’re talking about: Christianity, Science, Capitalism, Progress. And the way to get people to follow these laws ... is to get them to disbelieve in their own direct experience and to believe in the ‘objective’ observations of an elite priesthood, whether this priesthood is, once again, Christian, Scientific, Capitalist, Bureaucratic, what have you.”

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  10/08  at  05:43 AM

  11. I believe that WTTM underscores that “the nature” of Science and Technology undermines healthy living (in many significant ways)...without reference to power structures, who is running things.  Pinpointing of pages upon request available, but I don’t think there’s any substitute for reading the work cover to cover.  Blessings, Ox P.S. Good reference points provided by Mark here, nonetheless.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/08  at  10:26 AM

  12. I will order the book...Jensen is hard to find in Canada…

    Posted by j cummings from  on  10/08  at  12:17 PM

  13. Derrick Jensen’s talks on what we’ve been discussing are also available from his constant radio appearances.  “Streamer participation” is possible very often.  His schedule can be found at http://www.derrickjensen.org.  He was just on KBOO this morn...out of Portland, Oregon.  Best, Ox

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  10/08  at  12:51 PM
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