Sunday, July 11, 2004

Fences and Walls

By Jordy Cummings

Read full article...

Posted 07/11 | Add a Comment

    Comments:

    You must register to comment.

    Login | Register

  1. Since the Diaspora includes the likes of Stephen Zunes...playing down the horror of the Wall...what are the “odds,” would you say Jordy, that the Wall does not come down...without Israel being “forced” to bring it down in an unprecedented way?  Don’t know if you’re familiar w Vegas type numbers, JC, but I think you know what I mean.  Much of the “Jewish” effort on these shores to speak on behalf of the Palestinians seems to be serving as a red herring of sorts...giving more and more time for Death on the Installment Plan to take its effect.
    Best, O’Xman

    Posted by O'Xman from  on  07/11  at  10:11 PM

  2. As should be clear, Ox, I am arguing againt that.  I am optimistic. 

    Thanks,
    JC

    Posted by jordy cummings from  on  07/11  at  10:55 PM

  3. To repeat for the thick-headed like me...a fellow who’s probably rushing through all the writing here much too fast: Can you give me what you consider the single greatest basis for optimism on this issue?  Many thanks for taking the time, Rich

    Posted by O'Xman from  on  07/12  at  12:33 AM

  4. If I wasn’t optimistic, I wouldn’t be doing what I do.  If I didn’t do what I did, I wouldn’t be optimistic.

    Most importantly, among Jewish youth, college age, etc, there seems to be a real change taking place.  As I noted earlier, at least here in Toronto, 60 people showed up to hear David Frum at a synagogue.  1200 showed up to hear Nussebeih and Ayalon. 

    In terms of Zunes, I still don’t know what you are talking abotu, but as I say, I understand the position that dictates that “OK let’s argue against not the wall’s existence, but its position”...Tikkunistas have been heard to say that, figuring that they can only have so much infuence.  The court’s decision - and the viccitudes of global capitalism, funly enough, make me optimistic about Israel/Palestine. 

    I don’t think you are thick headed. But what the hell else should a Jew do?  Disavow their culture?  Or use their culture against itself…

    Posted by jordy cummings from  on  07/12  at  08:51 AM

  5. I’ll try to keep it simple, for now.  On your end, what, if anything, is being planned by way of Direct Action to force the main issue here?
    Merci, Ox

    Posted by O'Xman from  on  07/12  at  09:31 AM

  6. There are three main focal points of resistance in Israel/Palestine - apart of course from the Palestinian armed groups, who aren’t neccesarily acting in the same interests as the Left.  (Hamas’s program, unlike, say, Mustapha Barghouti, is unacceptable....)

    The first is direct action - that is the circle around the International Solidarity Movement, Gush Shalom and T’aayush, which we all have heard plenty of things about.  I would assume that the ISM will be doing plenty of things, out of Debord as much as Abbey, this summer.

    The second is mainstream peace moveent, which is often criticized from the left as being “Zionist” etc. but is often led by people who want to give people a little at a time, etc.  Gush Shalom has plenty of influence, so Peace Now is no longer singing the same tune...and Peace Now of all groups have been accused of ESPIONAGE for their excellent information gathering flights monitoring settlement growth.  For this reason alone, Peace Now does great work.

    Teh third is the inevitable cultural collusion that has existed for a long time Despite it all, there has been movements of cultural exchange that create, though a small real core, true friendships, relationships across the lines, etc.  I am thinking like the Barenboim/Said program of orchestras, the universities of both communities, for the most part, even simply antinomian situations..

    Posted by jordy cummings from  on  07/12  at  10:55 AM

  7. I’m not sure the location of the wall is such an issue.  The Organization of Islamic States, representing 50+ nations, argued to the ICJ that the fence was illegal NO MATTER WHERE IT GOES, because the entire region is occupied and its legal status is contested.  It can’t go ANYWHERE, they said.

    Those who say the wall should go in “Israel proper” and not in “Palestinian territory” are making a lot of questionable assumptions.  What is Israel proper?  Is it the pre-1967 ceasefire line?  Why?  If the 1948 war had ended an hour earlier or later, the line would be somewhere else.  Why is that the border? 

    During the 1948 war, there was an initial ceasefire which failed.  When the fighting flared up again, Israel seized Eilat and Jordan seized more neighborhoods in Jerusalem.  So now Eilat is part of “Israel proper” and the Jerusalem neighborhoods are not? 

    There is nothing magical about the old border.  The ceasefire documents themselves state adamantly that the cease fire line is NOT a political border. 

    My feeling is that there would be objections to the wall (or any other action of any kind which Israel took) no matter what.  The location of the wall is not the real issue.

    Posted by Aryeh from  on  07/12  at  11:09 AM

  8. Exactly.  The wall should not exist.  Read my original piece.

    Posted by jordy cummings from  on  07/12  at  12:36 PM

  9. Oh, no no no.  That’s not what I meant at all.  The wall is saving lives.  It’s saving MY life in particular. 

    The Organization of Islamic States, Hamas, the PLO, Fatah, etc. don’t really object to the location of the wall.  They object to Israel itself.  The OIS did not argue in court about the location of the wall.  They argued about the legal right of Israel to exist, about its right to build ANY wall of any kind anywhere.

    The real problem lies with this attitude that Israel has no right to exist.  If that were gone, if Israel were secure, then Peace Now and other such groups would prevail.  As long as the OIS and others continue to demonstrate that their ultimate goal is ERADICATION, not peace, there is no chance for a peace camp in Israel.

    I also feel optimistic, but my scenario runs more like this:  The wall goes up.  The settlements outside the wall come down (other than Hebron, it will happen).  Arafat dies of old age (soon, I hope).  There is minimal physical interaction between peoples for an extended time (several years).  Tempers cool.  Then we negotiate again.

    I feel very confident this is what will happen.  I don’t know if the negotiations will succeed the next time, but I feel confident we’ll get to that point.

    Posted by Aryeh from  on  07/12  at  02:04 PM

  10. If you believe the wall saves your life, then I would love to sell you the Brooklyn bridge.  I have nothing but solidarity with you as a Jewish brother living in Israel, afraid to take the bus.  But, it is the Israeli government policy of occupying Palestinian lands since 1967 that is obvious, even to many Israelis, including the newspaper Ha’aretz the designer of your insecurity.  The wall, and comments that wish death on anyone, even someone you dislike, are an embarassment to Jewish people, and of Israeli humanists who want Israel to become “a nation with an army,” not an “Army with a nation”

    Posted by jordy cummings from  on  07/12  at  03:35 PM

  11. I’m not gullible.  The number of attacks is as high as ever.  The number of successful attacks has plummeted.  On the world news they are saying the attack in Tel Aviv is the first of its kind since March.  In truth, it’s only the first large scale SUCCESSFUL attack.  The difference is the wall. 

    Legal or illegal, the wall keeps them out.  It works in Gaza.  It works on the Lebanese border.  Israel has long decades of hard experience making walls.  As the saying goes, there’s nothing like the possibility of violent death to focus one’s attention. 

    I agree that the so called “settlers” often make for bad PR.  Some of them have VERY unhealthy attitutes that have nothing to do with Yiddishkeit.  They are bad for the Jewish neshama. 

    Still, the violence started long before 1967.  The PLO was created before 1967.  There were two wars and thousands of smaller attacks before 1967.  Again, the OIS was not arguing about the occupied territories.  Their position was that ALL of Israel is illegal.  All of it.

    Hamas and other very popular groups say they will not rest until all the Jews are gone.  Their position is solidly based in Islam.  I recommend Bernard Lewis, “The Crisis in Islam.” A good book, you can read it in a day.

    I have 4 boys who will do military service when they are older.  It scares me.  As I read this very cynical, anti-Israeli web site, my feeling is that those with nothing at stake should perhaps leave us alone.

    Posted by Aryeh from  on  07/12  at  05:08 PM

  12. Leave you alone? What are we doing to keep you and your government officials from doing as you please in Israel, the Occupied Terrritories, and surrounding nations? Seems like we North Americans have been giving Israel a blank check since at least 1967 to do as you see fit to Palestinians, your Arab neighbors and yourselves without any fear that the “international community” will seriously regulate your atrocities whatsoever. So instead of throwing out terms like “anti-Israel” and “cynical,” maybe you should celebrate the fact that you have a benefactor who promises to be at your side, in good times and bad.

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  07/12  at  06:16 PM

  13. Aryeh and any other parents who is “letting” their kids do military service ANYWHERE these days needs some serious counseling.  I love Mark’s comments.  And I appreciate the updating, JC. As far as “direct action” in the sense that I meant, however, I read the first example given as appropriate; not sure about the second, and firm that the third does not “apply” (although it’s the sweetest of blessings...and will have some positive effect).  Hugs, Ox

    Posted by O'Xman from  on  07/12  at  07:52 PM

  14. Aryeh, were you born in the States?

    Posted by jordy cummings from  on  07/13  at  08:26 AM

  15. Interested in what percentage, roughly, of those concerned with the Palestinians getting their land back are concerned (and doing something about, also) returning lands to Native Americans.  We are not living under a Nation of Laws as long as the treaties and agreements --some of which have been broken very recently, not in the distant past (not that THAT should make a difference)-- are not honored.  Blessings in solidarity, O’Xman

    Posted by O'Xman from  on  07/13  at  12:08 PM

  16. Jordy,
    Yes, I moved to Israel about 15 years ago.  I’m a baal t’shuvah.

    Oxman,
    Pacifism is not always the answer.  As you may know, more than two thirds of Israeli Jews are either refugees or descendants of refugees.  They were forced out of Europe, forced out of Arab countries, driven out of Iran, or fled Ethiopia.  For more than a century, legislators in Russia, Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, etc. passed anti-Semitic laws, and invariably someone would stand up in Parliament and yell, “If they don’t like it, let them go to Palestine!” Once Israel was created, the Arab states violently expelled more than a million of their Jews to Israel. 

    Unless you know of someplace that wants to take in 6 million Israeli Jews, there is NO PLACE else to go.  And if we stay here without a military, we will all be dead in a week.  It’s easy to sit in your safe internet cafe and spit out pithy phrases about pacifism when you’re not getting shot at.  Why don’t you come here and ride the bus with me for a while?

    Mark,
    Sure, the U.S. has been a good ally.  And the vast majority of Americans are solidly pro-Israel.  The so-called Jewish lobby is mostly comprised of Christians.  Most Americans are sensible people with a strong sense of morality.  I note that your authors spend much of their time calling them idiots and cattle.  A Dale Carnegie course might be in order.

    My real gripe is that some people such as yourself and some web pages such as this one consistenly ignore all other problems in the world in order to hyperventilate on Israel’s so-called “atrocities.” Egypt, Syria, Sudan, Algeria, India, and Russia have EACH killed and tortured far more Muslims this year than Israel, but I don’t hear complaint.  I don’t hear gripes about Hamas or the Al Aksa Brigades.  No complaints about Palestinian atrocities.  And certainly no complaints about Africans killing, starving and torturing each other by the thousands each year.  Do any of your authors care about Zimbabwe, Sudan, Nigeria or the Congo?  No, they don’t.  They’re too busy ranting about Israel.

    You say you want justice for the Palestinians.  Why don’t you try to encourage a peace party among them?  There isn’t one.  There has never been a Palestinian peace camp.  If Hamas has its way, there will never be a peace camp.

    I see articles on your biased web page saying the Israelis commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.  It’s all lies, smears and bias.  If the Israelis wanted to commit genocide or cleansing, our enemies would all be dead by now and we wouldn’t be having this debate.  There is genocide going on in the world right now, but you’re too busy ranting about Israel to make comment about it. 

    I see a lot of your authors calling Americans racists.  One comment today called Theodore Herzl racist.  The Israelis are racists with their “apartheid wall.” I saw several comments saying the Israelis…

    Posted by Aryeh from  on  07/16  at  07:42 AM

  17. Thanks, Aryeh.  Pacifism has zero to do with what I proposed. I’ll just address the comments made directly to me AND one other than cannot be ignored.  Pacifism has zero to do w what I proposed.  There, I said it again.  I was simply reminding you that you’re sending your children to the slaughter for no reason...if you “let them” join the military.  The FACT that violence (against people) is no solution to the threats and facts of violence directed toward you...is obvious...if you pay attention to history...and to interpersonal relationships, yes?  People get all confused mixing up the advice I was giving you with labels like “pacifism.” I hope the whole world is listening right now --reading over your shoulder as I write to you, Aryeh-- as it it crucial that people get to the point that they are willing to make themselves VULNERABLE PLUS to the slings and arrows of this world.  Allow themselves to be hurt and have their property taken...in the name of a higher concern.  Arabs no more strike out at Jews or vice versa for illegitimate reasons anymore than a spouse lashes out at a spouse or a child screams at an adult for “no reason.” When you try to shut someone up, get them to play according to your rules by force directed against their person...well, I’m sure I don’t have to tell you where that leads.  Racism?  Yes, America was built on racism.  I highly recommend that people read DJW’s new entry on Press Action today...AND delve into the first 60 pages or so of Randall Robinson’s THE DEBT as soon as possible.  Mickey Z has done a wonderful job of presenting --in concise, clear..easy to read fashion-- the institutionalized racism related to war...in more than one of his works. But I’m going on too long.  Get your children back, Aryeh.  That’s where it starts.  Then...make a list of all the “labels” that rule your life.  Blessings, Richard Martin Oxman

    Posted by O'Xman from  on  07/16  at  10:34 AM

  18. Aryeh,

    If we are all so “out to get Israel” and Jews, why are we responding to you in a polite manner, and engaging you.  Why are you engaging us?  Because underneath some such ideology, you seem to believe in a common humanity, not some such literalist intepretation of Judaism.

    I am not surprised you were born in the States.  You should read Phillip Roth’s “exodus” some day and note that the fastest growing Jewish community in the world are Jews who moved to Paletine/Israel from Germany in the early century, and are now moving back.  Jews are safer and more Jewish, in the classical sense, in authentically Jewish communities.  Israel is what the historian Benedict Anderson calls an “imagined community.” The actuality of that community - the culture, the universities, the more progressive (And originally binational) kibbutzim, have been progressive dismantled, at least since the dawn of the Begin era.  By any standard, Israel has far more in common with Franco’s Spain - to its own citizens, as well as Palestinians, Arabs and mistreated Guest workers.  That you have accepted your fate as the subject of a junta is depressing.  Perhaps we can help you out of it…

    Now I am not disputing the perhaps historically neccessary haven for European Jews after the Holocaust, but I think that it is in no way controversial to assert As progressive Jewish and otherwise German/East European historians have shown, Jews played an incredible, if not key role in the enlightenmet and otherwise emancipatory movements for nearly a millenium.  Czarism and capitalism destroyed this, and the “goniffs” became the Jewish community leaders, in favor of Zionism - which as has been noted, accepted the anti-Semitic racialized vision of Judaism.

    You focus on Press Action’s “obsession” with Israel.  As a regular reader and sometime writer here, I have to say that you are emphatically wrong.  There is no focus on Israel any more than there is upon capitalism, militarism and imperialism.  That we talk more about Israel may have to with the fact that as many of us (not me) are Americans, we have some smidgen of belief that we can influence our government to change its policy, and be harder on Israel

    Posted by j cummings from  on  07/18  at  11:34 AM

  19. No one in the United States makes the argument that Egypt, Syria, Sudan, Algeria, and Russia are great democracies or that we should maintain a special relationship with them, no matter what they do. Israel, on the other hand, is inaccurately portrayed by U.S. politicians, the press, and academics as a great liberal democracy, even though it practices a form of apartheid among both its Arab citizens and in the Occupied Territories. India often gets the label of the world’s biggest democracy but that country’s political and economic leadership leaves much to be desired. These other countries may have killed more “Muslims” than Israel. They have much larger populations than Israel/Palestine so I wouldn’t be surprised if this were the case, given the ruthless despots who hold great power in these countries.

    The simple truth is that the United States gives billions of dollars each year to many nation-states, such as Egypt and Israel, that we should not be supporting. Just because Israel has been kind enough to resist the urge to completely wipe out or nuke the Palestinians doesn’t mean we should overlook the vicious Israeli boot preventing Palestinians from living even semi-normal lives.

    Sure, more people are dying in other parts of the world. But my taxes aren’t helping to finance those atrocities to the same extent they are in countries like Israel/Palestine and Egypt.

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  07/18  at  05:09 PM
    20. Commenting is not available in this weblog entry. {/if}

    Next entry: No Time for Democracy: This is an Emergency!

    Previous entry: The Militarist and Messianic Ideologies

    [ads]

    Support Press Action