Thursday, November 11, 2004

Palestine Greater Than Arafat

By Sam Bahour

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  1. Much that’s so intelligent here. However, let’s look at “As long as Palestinians breathe they will rightfully demand that law and justice prevail.” We do NOT want to wait till they all stop breathing (on one level, like the marginalized Native Americans)...do we?  Of course not. So...why do we continue to invest talk in UN solutions?  What is the track record there?  Kofi’s being in a second term won’t turn things around now, will it?  Why don’t we take the kind of action that will head off the violence that’s hinted at here?  That means NOT the old paradigms like what the UN represents. That means U.S. citizens...who wield so much power...cleverly forcing The Powers’ hand...by turning over the card table, interfering with the game that continues to be played?  I’ve made suggestions on this site...which wait for responses.  best, ox

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/11  at  12:46 PM

  2. With the contradictions between the UN and the world, and the States on the other hand, it would be irresponsible for progressives not to attempt to accentuate them. 

    In my mind, the UN is not an old paradigm, the US is.  International law is very radical, if followed.  One could say that it is hypocrisy for Bush to sit in power while Pinochet rots, but I say, Pinochet is just the first step… (And simply these are all constructs anyhow - but if the UN is prepared to assert independence and push the US towards pushing Israel, this would be a good thing for all parties)

    Posted by j cummings from  on  11/11  at  01:16 PM

  3. “Would be” is the operative phrase here, the words that all hangs on, that beg for all eggs to not be sharing the basket with it.  To not even have one’s primary eggs adjacent to....  Let’s ask the hard question, getting past the obvious well-intentioned “wishes”: What other baskets are being bandied about in the Progressive Marketplace these days?  To what degree does the UN basket occupy too much consideration vis-a-vis its track record?  There is virtually zero being done on other fronts, yes?  I’m not talking about little corners that like to think they’ll be in the Big Room one day. Who has the time to talk and who doesn’t? The eggs out to be delivered.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/11  at  02:57 PM

  4. IRISH CHANG.  With all due respect to Mark posting Jordy’s piece here, please note that my “obituary” to IRIS CHANG can be found at San Diego Moon thanks to Kap Fulton. Her apparent suicide deserves a notice ... at least as much as Arafat’s “mixed” contribution to humanity. Blessings in solidarity, Richard

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/12  at  10:10 AM

  5. IRIS CHANG.  With all due respect to Mark posting Sam’s piece here, please note that my “obituary” to IRIS CHANG can be found at San Diego Moon thanks to Kap Fulton. Her apparent suicide deserves a notice ... at least as much as Arafat’s “mixed” contribution to humanity. Blessings in solidarity, Richard P.S. And the neglect of Iris relative to Arafat worldwide speaks volumes, People Magazine thinking notwithstanding.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/12  at  10:48 AM

  6. Just because I didn’t post Richard’s report on Iris Chang but did post an article on Yasser Arafat doesn’t mean that I’m not saddened by Chang’s death or that I believe Arafat’s death is any more profound.

    For readers interested in reading many of Richard’s most recent articles not posted on Press Action, yes, I recommend they visit Kap’s San Diego Moon site.

    I also think PA readers interested in having a single destination to read Richard’s writings should urge him to start his own website or weblog. As I’ve mentioned to Richard, a http://www.richardoxman.com site or other domain would likely gain a loyal and avid following, including apparently among many Italians. Plus, he wouldn’t have to deal with editor middlemen; he could take his Plan and other ideas straight to the online masses for comment and debate.

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  11/12  at  12:36 PM

  7. Mark’s missing fundamental points here. To focus on one for the moment: Going “elsewhere” solves zero, and avoids a confrontation that must be taken down the road a bit more, to put it lightly.  To wit, there’s no getting around “dealing with” “editor middlemen” in attempting to generate meaningful activism...that can lead to significant change. As troublesome and disappointing as the back and forth is here so often...I do not participate in the exchanges because I am a masochist or up in the sky somewhere.  Zero will take place if readers here don’t ask the hard questions w one another, make some changes and join where they can join (beyond words). That’s not happening, and it won’t take place by my “switching places”...stirring up Italian “pastability” dishes.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/12  at  12:54 PM

  8. I second Mark’s encouragement.

    Richard, you’ve got to realize - and I said this to you privately before in an e-mail (yes I did respond to your queries) that you are making the Press Action forums seem like your de-facto blog.  Beyond the fact that you may say “well I just have more to say” - I don’t think that is the role of a comments area on what I assume is planned to be a multi-issue left-wing website, nothing more or less than that. 

    I share your despair with the world, but you seem to not follow your own advice when you have said to me and others “its all just writing.” Sam Bahour lives in Ramallah.  Of course there’s gonna be a report from him.  Iris Chang on the other hand, is simply not as well known...I can say that I hadn’t heard of her before her unfortunate suicide.

    My point is that I have gotten letters from readers asking questions about my writing here who are afraid to ask these questions in the forum because of how you would respond to them.  Some of these people suffer from what I would call serious false conciousness, but I see it as my job to change that conciousness, not bitch at them for having it. 

    If you have so much to say on these issues, I encourage you to join a radical list-serv, or better yet, an actual local organization that is doing something hands-on.  Beyond my freelance technical writing and left-stuff, I work for a tenants rights organization among Eastern European immigrants..  I personally find that I have a lot less to vent, a lot less visceral anger and emotion such that is displayed by Ox here, due to my actual hands-on activism.

    My point is that of course talk is cheap...but sometimes, you not only dominate, you denigrate.  You are too good for that.  Write a book, dude.  A manifesto even.  But stop bullying people and filling up bandwidth with harangues.  Less jaw jaw, more mau mau…

    Posted by j cummings from  on  11/12  at  01:27 PM

  9. Here you go, Jordy: a) “yes I did respond to your queries” NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO FIND CLOSURE REGARDING THE PLAN, b) “I don’t think that is the role of a comments area on what I assume is planned to be a multi-issue left-wing website, nothing more or less than that.” SO NOW WE KNOW WHAT you THINK THE ROLE IS. c) you seem to not follow your own advice IF YOU’RE SAYING THAT I AM ONLY WRITING YOU’RE OBVIOUSLY QUITE WRONG. THE NOTION THAT I’M “bitchin’” ‘cause I’M NOT ON THE STREETS W AN ACTION GROUP CAN BE CLARIFIED IF YOU GO TO http://www.onedancesummit.org AND WRITE FOR A REMINDER ON WHAT I’VE DONE SINCE JANUARY, MR. AMNESIA d)Sam Bahour lives in Ramallah. I WASN’T TALKING ABOUT HIM SUBMITTING SOMETHING e)"I hadn’t heard of her” WHICH IS PART OF MY POINT, YES? F)afraid to ask these questions in the forum because of how you would respond to them SUCH FEAR IS NOT A REASON TO AVOID CONFRONTATION. ME BITCH? LET’S DEFINE OUR WORDS, OK? g) Write a book, dude. YOU, OBVIOUSLY, HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT’S WRONG ABOUT SUGGESTING SUCH A THING. THINK.  h)more mau mau YOU ARE PLAYING W SERIOUS THINGS HERE. I RECOMMEND MORE IRIS CHANG TO UNDERSTAND YOURSELF BETTER.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/12  at  01:47 PM

  10. I understand myself well.  I also understand that you dominate this forum and piss me and a lot of other people off, not with your views, but in your attitude.  Your response makes my point for me.  I don’t mean to provoke you, brother, but you’ve got to take it down a notch.

    Posted by j cummings from  on  11/12  at  05:26 PM

  11. Richard has a lot of good ideas and he writes a lot of articles. My proposal is for Richard to launch his own website on which he can post each of these articles. I’m not saying he should stop submitting his articles to Press Action, CounterPunch, ZNet, Dissident Voice, Alternative Press Review, San Diego Moon, etc. But in case these websites opt not to post a particular piece by Richard, then readers would still have a place to find it—on Richard’s own website. And I’m not saying Richard should stop posting comments on Press Action, although it should be pointed out that, through his comments, he has struck a nerve with many readers as being overbearing.

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  11/12  at  06:08 PM

  12. dear mr. cummings, i wonder though about what you write in comment # 8. first of all you state that you hear from others who are afraid of putting their opinion down because of the reaction they may get from richard oxman. frankly i doubt such people exist and that this statement is in fact a reflection of your own fears of what responses your comments may recieve.  it much sounds to me like a way of reasoning by bringing in a sideline ‘deus ex imagina’ for attack, i.e. using fictional victims as a tool for beating your opponent in discussion, a not very dignified way of debating. secondly you state that you are engaged in tenant’s rights for eastern european immigrants. it surely is a very admirable occupation and infinitely laudable. however, and i do not know where you live, eastern european immigrants to the new world appear to be rather scarce these days, unless you refer to the large influx of russian jews like we find here in brighton beach in new york. it is a great place and full of delicious russian goodies, but i fail to see the needs of a rather prosperous and quite well functioning russian enclave closely knit by family ties. one must admit though that the russian maffia seems to have a hold there, vigorously fought against by the new york state attorney eliot spitzer. in what way, if i am allowed in my curiosity, do you feel that your activities pre-empt whatever richard oxman may be doing ? respectfully, gui rochat

    Posted by gui rochat from new york  on  11/12  at  06:51 PM

  13. I’d like Jordy to make note of the fact that I provided responses (plural), not just a response. There are details that beg for responses...which you’ve chosen to ignore...by falling back on the tired old complaint about my attitudinal set, my tone. OVERBEARING?  I think I’m obliged to point out to Mark and Jordy that people also have other responses to my content and form and attitude.  A mixed bag can be expected here, yes?  However, without painting myself to be John Brown, I invoke his image, his actions, his attitude, etc. at this moment...for the purpose of asking: Didn’t people in the 19th c find him overbearing?  Some?  Most?  Did Frederick Douglas, who chose not to join him at Harpers, feel that way?  Or did he and Tubman support him?  I am NOT Brown, of course, nor do I aspire to be like him.  But the fundamental issue here, it seems to me, is that people are going to have to ask themselves whether or not they intend to take ANY OF THIS down a notch. One of the points Chang made was that there are all kinds of ways in which people allow atrocities to continue under their eyes, with full public awareness of their awareness. One of them is by bringing things down a notch...to remain polite, etc.  It’s a great priv to be posted anywhere, but...Jordy/Mark...there are too many books, too many blogs for me to add to the pile the way you recommend.  This IS the book here; let’s see what good it does.

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/12  at  09:32 PM

  14. Just a note to Gui…

    I feel compelled to at least speak up on Jordy’s behalf, as I am one of the ‘persons you doubt exists’, lest you believe he is manufacturing them. A few weeks ago I emailed him about a small matter in one his articles. It was essentially an invitation to expand his commentary on what was a fairly irrelevent detail. I did SPECIFICALLY tell him I was emailing him rather than commenting in the forum. I think I correctly forsaw what would have happened if I did and mentioned Mr. Oxman by name - he certainly does have has a habit of trying to ‘refocus’ arguements. This is not bad thing by any means, indeed healthy, but at that particular moment I was not really in the mood. I should point out that I quite enjoy Richard’s articles and find his rather uncompromising urgency refreshing…

    Posted by G.Walter from  on  11/12  at  10:46 PM

  15. thank you mr. walter. i appreciate your honesty as i think that directness is always good and therefore i think you should write comments on pressaction and if mr. oxman refocuses arguments, well then that would be a prefect opportunity to get ‘into it’ with him. rather than having private conversations one can share one’s objections or agreements and bring everything out into the open, which of course does not mean you should agree with the responses, but it sruely may help other people to understand what goes on.
    indeed the forum of pressaction is a wonderful place to do so !

    Posted by gui rochat from new york  on  11/12  at  11:42 PM

  16. I gotta tell ‘ya, G (Walter), that your “I should point out that I quite enjoy Richard’s articles and find his rather uncompromising urgency refreshing…” means a lot to me.  Truly. How’s that for “refocusing” to meet my tastes? Seriously, I appreciate the positive (like anyone else would), and I do hope that I don’t “lose you” by running stuff into the ground, etc.  Ditto for all on all. What part of the country are you from?  Or are you in Canada?

    Posted by Richard Oxman from  on  11/13  at  03:36 AM

  17. Gui Rochat’s comments about East Europeans are very stereotypical and inappropriate.  I work with mainly East Europeans because of my language skills, but also South Asians.  Toronto attracts a lot of both groups.  It is part of my job to make sure they know which public credit unions to use, ESL skills, labor unions, etc.

    Posted by j cummings from  on  11/13  at  09:44 AM

  18. dear jordy, i had a chance to see your website. good work apparently and i only wish i could write as well as you. your comment that mine are stereotypical and inappropriate does not mean much to me, because unexplained terms like those smack too much of paternalism which makes me even wonder more how you approach immigrants. that you could be angry at me is understandable,
    but like in your comment # 8, no point is ever won by an attack ‘ad hominem’.  i have the feeling that you are dealing with a lot of contradictions (which in fact we all have to do), but one has the most effect by cool rational, even harsh reasoning in a world which is made on purpose to be opaque, confusing and full of ‘unrealities’ in order to make you ineffective (vide the public school system). the struggle to see not through through a glass darkly is ever present. in solidarity, gr

    Posted by gui rochat from new york  on  11/13  at  10:44 AM

  19. I don’t mean to be paternalistic I just meant that East Europeans are not necc. Russians, Jews or Russian Jews...thats where I found you stereotyping.  As a resident of what the UN claims is the most multicultural city in the world, I deal with people from every continent.

    Posted by j cummings from  on  11/13  at  12:42 PM

  20. okay accepted ! g.

    Posted by gui rochat from new york  on  11/13  at  12:50 PM
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