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Tuesday, November 18, 2008

News Flash: Obama hypnotizes Zinn

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Posted 11/18 |

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I would find it hard to believe, Zinn doesn’t know relationships between the government and fundamentalist religions need to be addressed, for as we all know, when LAST resort is needed to justify...it was the will of God,G-D. God told me to rape, to torture, to use napalm, to use long outlawed cluster bombs...,

Will Obama, Zinn ask, who’s god asks for supporting slaughter of millions of people in place of supporting life. It’s a lot more economical to help than to hurt also.

I’d like to see more women have input here, since by their being, have the biology/physics to support life. Obama will not learn this experience first hand.

Posted by joe of maine from on 11/18 at 08:09 AM

I appreciate Zinn seeing the cup as half full. But I think he overestimates both the zeal with which Americans will press for change and Obama’s willingness to act in their stated interests. I agree that if there IS going to be a change, it will take the American people acting vigorously to push the new administration to do so. Whether Americans will do so remains to be seen. As MZ has been pointing out, even many on the left who aren’t fooled by the “two party” false dichotomy seem to have let down their guard. I think Zinn’s article was actually in line with that sentiment, though. That’s how I interpreted it, anyway.

Posted by Jeremy R. Hammond from Taipei on 11/18 at 08:43 AM

I’m not 100% sure what you mean, Jeremy, but I will clarify this: Zinn has nothing to gain by writing such an article. Anyone familiar with him and his work already knows this is his dream. But he has much to lose by presenting this utopian ideal within the same article that calls for celebration over a black man being elected president. Those who trust Zinn’s vision could easily interpret this essay as a tacit endorsement of Obama’s policies or at least, potential policies.

I like what Nader is saying now much more: Obama is out of reach so if you think you can influence policy, it’s far more logical to aim for the Congress now. Nader is not even hinting that Obama represents real change. Zinn is.

Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 11/18 at 09:11 AM

Obama loves Joe:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4AG7MC20081118

Captcha sez: united

Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 11/18 at 01:34 PM

I think Mickey’s statement, “the tens of thousands of readers who look to Zinn as a trusted voice of wisdom and reason are being dangerously misled by an article...,” is very important...and these kinds of reactions by people like Zinn, feels disappointing to me as well.

I wonder if part of this aspect of this Zinn discrepancy is the usual looking to others for guidance or validation and that’s probably fine some of the time. But isn’t this also the usual manipulation, hierarchical authority response, acknowledging leaders and followers, which is deeply rooted and which is why we are where we are? Are we practicing that which we need to transcend? Is this trusting ourself, our personal observations?

Many people, I suppose ‘hold out’ until they read or listen to someone like Zinn, Chomski, Kaminski and others when it comes to socio-political-economic concerns. But if we look at how we live, the conditions in this country, in the oppressive 40-50 hour workplace, the cost of living, the fact that america can be measurably verified to be a backwards society with little concern about our own citizens, people of other countries, the so-called natural resources, which are our sources for life, that everything depends upon, not simply something that is usable and disposable, for greed profits, if we know all these things do we really need a ‘god’ figure, a guru, an expert to remind us and even perhaps divert our attention from how bad things really are...?, as Zinn’s comments might be doing for many?

Posted by joe of maine from on 11/18 at 01:48 PM

Yeah, any kind of endorsement of the two parties as a serious possibility for urgent change is dangerous and misleading. I like the notion discussed here lately that it’s the people we have to convince, not the leaders.

After all, anything could be changed in a day if a majority of citizens withheld taxes or took general strike/protest action. Or just changed themselves.

I used a quote from that Zinn article over on the Media Lens board a couple of days back. The Obama-maniacs were refuing to say out what exactly they tought he would do that constitutes a real change so I used Zinns dreamworld quote and saud like “Who will come out and back this, say it’s what they think will happen, who will put their money where their mouth is”.

Of course, no one did.

Anyway, Zinn’s great work is one of the key texts pointing out the origins of real change and power relationships, so he should know better than us.

What we need is an emphatic rejection of the system. For me, the fact that a president has comer to power on a wave of hope and new political awareness - but with reactionary business as usual policies - represents a new and unique challenge for the ‘left’.

Hijackers have taken our ship and we need to take it back or we’ll sink.

In the process, perhaps we could take great steps in exposing the system generally. Especialy since, the Obama campaign represents an outrageous hypocrisy.

Posted by Andy from Shanghai on 11/18 at 01:59 PM

Thanks, Joe and Andy. As you both say, we have all the power we need but we’d rather sit back and wait for directions...whether it’s from a corporate criminal like Obama or a left wing legend like Zinn.

Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 11/18 at 02:03 PM

Add this to the “Change we can believe in” pile:

Obama advisers: Harsh interrogators will walk

Even as President-elect Obama vowed “to regain America’s moral stature in the world” during Sunday’s 60 Minutes appearance, two of his senior advisers confessed there is no intent to pursue those in the Bush administration who engaged in torture.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_admin_wont_prosecure_Bush_war_1117.html

Posted by Sam from San Francisco on 11/18 at 02:48 PM

Thanks, Sam. To your link, I’ll add this:
http://tinyurl.com/69mq75

It’s all part of Obama’s plan to satisfy Zinn and make America a “peace loving country.”

Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 11/18 at 02:51 PM

Mickey-- it takes some gumption to point a finger (at Zinn), because like the old saying sez: point a finger and three fingers point back.

After eight years of Bush, people are so parched that the Kool-Aid is beyond tempting.

I am less troubled by got-to-go Zinn as I am by other ominous signs of denial and misdirection on the so-called progressive left.

Case in point:

Like Countercurrents which reposted your article, Dissident Voice just published an article by Robert Jensen that purports to descipher Hope in our scary age (without mentioning Obama-- or the neccessity of having the required courage of understanding the past).

http://tinyurl.com/5fsbvh

At the end of the article I see the editorial notice:
“Comments are closed on this article.”

The article was just posted!

Has Dissident Voice just become another propaganda tool?

btw--

I see no wisdom, focus, or depth in Jensen’s naval gazing-- only bombast and mumbo-jumbo.

What is his purpose? To make us feel guilty, resigned, wronged?

I see his purpose as this: to redirect people from laying blame or opening up old wounds-- particularly questions about 9/11.

9/11

==yech!!==

Haven’t we all had enough of 9/11?

Wasn’t it all just a creepy nightmare? (That gets creepier and creepier for those of us who continue to look at it?)

Isn’t it just more road-kill to leave behind us we speed into America’s uncertain future?

Oh, yeah-- while we’re forgetting that shouldn’t we be remembering all the kids that are dying and all the species that are disappearing every minute?

Not!

I have had enough of all the smarmy self-righteousness that serves only to protect our own exaggerated images of ourselves-- as benevolent, informed, and compassionate.

http://tinyurl.com/5azvay

Posted by Robert B. Livingston from San Francisco on 11/18 at 04:27 PM

Robert: I must admit I don’t understand your comments or the point you’re making.

Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 11/18 at 05:10 PM

Looks like Robert Jensen is indulging in a little pornography of his own (from the Greek, “writing about harlots"). If the comments section were up, I’d point out this irony, and ask he be more consistent in who he does/doesn’t mind seeing screwed.

Zinn: I’ve bitched about this before: the principles of the American left are based on a time of great abundance, with large numbers of willing participants to swell the ranks. Hence, such articles from a reality where time can stretch and bend, when things don’t seem so urgent. “It’s an art project, kids, not a dire, life-threatening crisis!” Zinn could be using his thunder from higher peaks, like examining the distance between skin color and class priorities.

Have I hit this too hard? I hope so.

It’s damn cold up here in MA!

Posted by Zen Prole from Urth on 11/18 at 05:35 PM

Hey Zen. I got to see Adam Engel at my talk the other night.

Let me re-comment on Robert’s comment. For some odd reason, my brain saw him as talking about Robert Jensen and then Derrick Jensen later in the comment. After reading RJ’s article, I “got” it. Odd, huh?

Anyway, I think R. Jensen’s article has merit. I’m not a fan of “hope” but his piece steers us away from debating, say, the pro’s and cons of Hillary as Sec. of State and points us toward the coming collapse. Here’s where I seem to differ from Expendable Robert’s comment. If Dick Cheney confessed to 9/11 tomorrow, we’d have the culprit but it wouldn’t change a single thing about “all the kids that are dying and all the species that are disappearing every minute.” That’s why I’d have to personally disagree with this being characterized as “redirection.”

As for the opening salvo about me pointing a finger, I’m still clueless as to whether I was being applauded or chided.

Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 11/18 at 05:50 PM

I’m not to clear on Robert’s point either. However. et’s go back over things in ultra simple terms.

The majority of people in the world are being shafted unnecessarily. Not to mention the world itself and it’s lifesystems.

In powerful countries like the USA, the majority of people could bring the current order of things to a grinding halt - without causing chaos or strife domestically - by simply refusing to pay taxes or do anything until the gov and their policies are replaced. Civil disobedience.

Any focus on the rep-dem current system as a way to affect change is another nail in the coffin of that possibility. Leading left intellectuals should do two things- one) keep on exposing propaganda and policies as they usually do to create necessary enlightenment and two) refuse all endorsement in any kind of sense, of the systems they expose.

Otherwise we are going to get the situation described in earlier comments. That is if we miss the chance for powerful but bloodless civil actions we will then go on to the ‘hitting rock bottom’ scenario.

Radicals should always stay radical and educate through agitation and the breaking down of myths.

And we should all temper this work with urgency based on this certainty - forget what you think about our democratic societies: the beginning of mass civil actions would be initially met with the armed forces.

Posted by Andy from Shanghai on 11/18 at 05:54 PM

Robert..10..Without having read Robert Jensen’s article, I’d bet a nickel it is based on a blind optimism that arises from traditional religious teachings. Inherent is all the confusion of these intertwined versions of male gods determining who should kill who and who should have the most money and who should rule over everything on this planet and elsewhere.

I certainly don’t want to reinforce the ‘stories’ that have created this death before life scenario we have all been born into for centuries. Male gods, male politicians, male popes, male generals, I think I see a pattern here $+$+$+$

Posted by joe of maine from on 11/18 at 06:02 PM

I just read Robert Jensen’s article.

I would have preferred he pointed out the relationship between the dominating male to the submissive female with the disrespectful domination of this life bearing planet by mostly men and the influential social institutes that have enabled this in all cultures.

If anyone has an opportunity to listen to shortwave radio, not the internet version, but to be able to quickly scan the dial and hear the enormous amount of religious propaganda broadcasts in numerous languages 24 hours a day.

These broadcasts unfortunately must create much false hope for thousands of very vulnerable people.

Andy, I think so many people are simply afraid of not paying taxes, having a general strike. So many people are truly worried if they will have food to eat in the near future without having to depend upon some pathetic bureaucracy. Terrorized R us.

Zen, if you haven’t yet, check out tonight’s sky.

Posted by joe of maine from on 11/18 at 06:34 PM

I guess I could see how Zinn’s article could be interpreted as “a tacit endorsement of Obama’s policies or at least, potential policies”, but I think that would be a misinterpretation of what he wrote.

I think his comparison to Lincoln is most telling. Despite being a racist and stating plainly he had no ambition or desire to end slavery, both during his campaign and at his inauguration, he was used as a vehicle to bring about the end of slavery in the U.S.

“Lincoln, he said, was not an abolitionist, but he in some way ‘consents to represent an antislavery position.’”

Well, similarly, and I agree with you 100% on this, Obama is not an anti-war, anti-empire candidate. But he does in some way consent to represent the anti-war, anti-empire position—at least to the same extent that racist, non-abolitionist Lincoln consented to “represent an antislavery position” because of popular sentiment about it.

I don’t think Zinn’s point is that Obama will bring change, but that if Americans rise up they can use him as a pawn to bring it about anyways.

I agree with that. I’m doubtful Americans will do so, but I certainly agree that the power is in our hands to implement real change, if we were only willing to exercise it collectively.

I don’t see this article as evidence of Zinn harboring—to borrow his own word—any “illusions” about Obama representing real change. It seems to me he’s saying the opposite. It’s up to the American people, not the new President.

Posted by Jeremy R. Hammond from Taipei on 11/18 at 11:18 PM

MZ, FYI you’ve had a few comments posted on a few articles at FPJ (I feel like Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam when he talks about accommodating the VIP ASAP). The latest is someone applauding “Driving Mr Barack” and “A Song for Obama”. If you’re curious about comments on your articles, you can actually subscribe to the comments to be notified when they are made, just so ya know.

I’ll also be getting your latest up today, along with another from Antonio. I’m a little slow on account of being bogged down in some research right now.

Posted by Jeremy R. Hammond from Taipei on 11/18 at 11:49 PM

Joe

I don’t want to sound all talk on that area (strike/non tax payment), I have some experience here. Just as I turned eligible, the conservative government in the UK decided that our housing tax, called ‘rates’ at the time, was too nice to the poor.

A rich guy could have a high value mansion to himself and be paying a lot, then a bunch of poorer people could live 5 together in a tenement of low value - low and split 5 ways. So they decided the solution was to abolish it and replace it with Poll Tax - that is a tax for each person, for being alive. An air tax.

This was so offensive that there were immediate rallies outside of every town hall in the UK. They initially said they’d jail anyone who didn’t pay, but then we all said “try it”.

It was then withdrawn and replaced with a new property based tax “council tax”. People still got billed for that one year - but it was dropped by force of civil disobedience. Not to mention some bricks through windows at the rallies.

Posted by Shanghai from Shanghai on 11/19 at 02:26 AM

Thanks, Jeremy. I may sign up for those comment notifications. ASAP. OK? TTYL. LOL.

For now, I’m putting up a new post here shortly.

Posted by Mickey Z. from Astoria on 11/19 at 05:12 AM

Excellent piece about Zinn and those who think along his lines of delusion.

I’m going to spend time at 2 “Thanksgiving” gatherings surrounded by carnivorous Obama-bots and -maniacs. I’m guaranteed to be the only person in those 2 groups who has renounced membership in their Panglossian cult. Not looking forward to it but sometimes ya gotta do family.

I assume Zinn’s millions of jobs are of the Steady State variety.

Sorry to see some moonbat conspiradroids—of the easily debunked urban legend, “nine-eleven-was-an-inside-job”, variety (wtc7lies.googlepages.com)—in this thread but that’s what ya get when you dance with the likes of GlobalFiction.ca and ConspiracyCurrents.org.

If this thread is any indication, the myth of infinite growth on a finite planet is alive and thriving.

Here’s a reality (tinyurl.com/69efn8) arriving too late to save a drowning witch.

As for Jensen’s timely article, I think of it as a follow up to, The Delusion Revolution: We’re On The Road To Extinction And In Denial (tinyurl.com/67bse9).

The Jensens get it, Derrick and Robert (they are not related, as far as I know).

Robert was particularly pungent in 2005:

“Let me put it as clearly as I can: The way we live in this country—the way every one of us here at this rally today lives—is morally indefensible and ecologically unsustainable. It is a way of life that can’t be enjoyed by the rest of the world, and it is a way of life that if unchecked literally will destroy the world.”
- The World Waits for an Answer (tinyurl.com/6fzzd5)

Posted by MonkeyMuffins from The Not-So-United States on 11/19 at 11:57 PM

Tuesday, November 18, 2008

News Flash: Obama hypnotizes Zinn

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