Sunday, February 13, 2005
It's Not About Free Speech Anymore (Was It Ever?)
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While the issue of free speech is at work here to a certain degree, what’s lacking is common sense to look beyond that to see it’s FAR deeper than what you say and your right to [say] it. Common sense to see that when anyone starts deciding that THEY are the world’s compass, that they are more human than others (and thus more valuable), then it’s [inevitable] that those “Others” will take issue with the value assigned to them by those doing the deciding. When one self-imposed group of “world leaders” decides who is expendable and therefore to be counted as “collateral damage”? with NO input at ALL outside their enclaves, is it really so outlandish to expect that those being dehumanized would respond, and not so kindly? What would you do?
As they subsidize the dispatch of covert U.S. death squads worldwide to the tune of $500M annually, tens of millions of American taxpayer-drones ritually ready their W-2 Forms to dutifully fund further war crimes and their Empire’s expanding reign of cultural superiority, economic subjegation and global havoc. Yes, Mom, hold the apple pie and spread the word far and wide throughout America’s dying suburbia thatwe, in fact, are the terrorists. The rest of the world does not presume to “hate us for our ‘freedoms’”, but as we sit in absolute judgment beyond reason, appeal or reproach, they recognize the all-too-real weapons of mass destruction --our promises of “liberation”, “freedom”, “democracy”, and “justice"-- for what they are—delusion, hypocrisy, and an insatiable imperialistic appetite.
Posted by Steve Cone from 4 Corners (National Sacrifice Area) USA on 02/13 at 11:58 PM -
I believe what you speak is true.
Common Sense is what you and Chuchill speak and
one must be one with “God” the Great Spirit to acknowlede the basics of life. It doesn’t
require that only the highly educated to have
common sense does it? It’s what we know when we are children
but as we grow older society requires wisdom and love to be of minimal importance and we become cold and spiritless.Posted by Clay from N.California. USA on 02/14 at 01:51 AM -
Mom,
I do think flaunting education, peppered with fancy verbiage, is often misused to intimidate some super sharp people from ever proving that’s so. Great point (in addition to all the others). I liked your writing here. Keep on.
Posted by Theo from Greece on 02/14 at 07:19 AM -
I wanted to add one thing here too,about this “US out of North America and off the planet"statement Churchill(and others,he’s not the only one)has made.It’s been twisted in the media and by his detractors as meaning “whitey must die"and that’s not correct.
When he speaks of “US"in this context,he’s referring to the government,all that mammoth machinery that is the US government.He’s not advocating the mass slaughter of “average america”.He doesn’t exclude armed resistance as a possibility simply because,well,look at what he got for just WRITING some words.Imagine what will happen when direct action is noticed by those in power.Armed resistance is what many indigenous peoples have had to resort to to even have a hope in hell of surviving at times.
The issue of Indian Sovereignty(sp?hey it’s early,lol) needs to be looked at from the Indian perspective here.It’s not about replacing old bosses with new ones in the same system.It’s about giving back what the people need for basic survival and deconstructing the very system that stands squarely in the way of that.A restoration of human dignity.And yes,even leaving Indian nations alone so they can heal(and making sure we,as outsiders,see to it that basic needs of the people are met,willingly,so that healing can proceed).It’s kind of hard for any people to be healthy and strong when there’s inadequate housing,rampant alcohol and drug addiction,isolation from resources,when even getting to proper and adequate nutrition can be a challenge.The average life span on the South Dakota reservations is a third shorter than it is in the general population.Indian teens are at much higher risk of committing suicide or dying in alcohol related deaths than a suburban white teen is.Unemployment sits at well over 80 percent and has consistantly for decades.There’s a very complex web of circumstances here,it’s not a problem just throwing money at will fix.This is why men such as Ward Churchill,Russell Means,John Trudell and others are so passionate and hard core,they want to save their people from extinction.
Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/14 at 07:27 AM -
I have yet to meet one soul who doesn’t get riled up at the message that their inaction is a contributing factor to some gross injustice or inhumane condition.
It seems that we’re a lot more willing to take criticism for how our actions affect such conditions than how our inactions do.
Perhaps the reason for that is… many of us are alot more inactive than active re. doing something about them.
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/14 at 09:39 AM -
I’m with mom anonymous, also. Freedom is a real nice word to use to placate the great unwashed. Freedom… Liberty… Justice… the pursuit of unending war… paid for by the hapless ‘taxpayer’. All sexed-up and real warm and fuzzy. It’s the bomb.
The ‘rich’ slough off that burden to those you don’t mind paying their ‘fair and balanced’ share. People are suckers for the trademarked American brand of Greedom. Those who aren’t are tyrants and terrorists.
If only everybody could be as stupid as, say, that loud-mouthed, self-righteous knucklehead Dennis Miller. If you heard what he said about Ward Churchill on CNBC, you would be appalled. Of course, Jack Kelly would find ‘enormous pleasure’ in busting islamofascist heads. They both gladly pay their taxes. The fools and knaves should feel used and abused, but they’re too stupid to realize that the real problems exist in our government. The buck stops there.
Bill Clinton doesn’t mind, the well-heeled Saudis paid for his library. Incidentally, you can’t buy a red rose on Valentine’s day in Saudi Arabia. Ain’t that somethin’?
We’ve been sold down the river. Expect to feel how the saddened Native Americans felt as they trudged along the ‘Trail of Tears’.
Posted by MDPB from on 02/14 at 10:35 AM -
There is no such thing as “academic freedom”—or even intellectual integrity within academia. The President of Harvard discovered that to even conjecture about differences between the sexes and their sociological implications is out of bounds. Yet, to advocate genocide against the whites, capitalists, conservatives and corporate workers is OK. Yes, its OK to advocate the destruction of the US system—which implies mass killings of tens of millions-- but its not OK to establish discussion that may offend sensibilities regarding race, sex and sexuality. The reason is that the Left suffers from intellectual cowardice, while seeking to project a moral supremacy that does not exist. It does not exist because the logical consequences of what the the radical Left advocates—from the Palestinian issue to Imperialism to the concept of justice - carries the same racial mind-set and violent consequences as they project on other entities. Instead of saving anyone from death or “extinction”, folks like Ward push these groups to that conclusion—as well as those groups for whom the Left has developed a racist-type hatred (hatred based on categorization and assigned attributes which dehumanize and demonize). Encourgaing and offering moral cover to Islamic facsists will not save one Muslim. Indeed, it’s more likely to lead them to a place where annihilation is inevitable, where the Left is more irrelevant in shaping events and where genuine compassion/debate is sacrificed for rhetorical fervor. What happens when “more 911’s” happen, as Ward claims are necessary, or the US is “wiped off the map”? What are the consequences? Will this benefit the Indians or Arabs or Muslims or even Leftists? No. This wish carries with it the sacrifice of all these groups on the alter of ideological madness. Christians, conservatives, moderates, liberals, entreprenuers, MBA’s and others who believe in our system will not suddenly accept the Leftist assumptions and surrender themselves to their system’s destruction. There will be a response not easily dismissed and ignored, as the responses that have been ignored and dismissed by Leftist intellectuals. The best case scenario envisioned by Leftists, like Ward, will involve massive genocide, in which those who share his ideological identity prevail. That is also the most unlikely scenario.
What’s needed is a genuine dialogue between the Left and those whom they have created a racist-type hatred toward. Self-reflection and a desire to place intellectual integrity above political identity would be helpful. If we can make it to the point where improving and defending human life is more important than some intellectual caricature of a political identity-- we might actually do something good. Otherwise, we will find ourselves buried so deeply in our respective trenches that debate, discovery and the joy of connecting with different viewpoints will suffocate beneath the weight of our own conformity.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/14 at 11:16 AM -
Mr. Yeats, you keep beating on the same drum and end up with a cacophony of noise.
In reality, all you ever do is ‘point with pride and view with alarm.’
All of those words don’t amount to a hill of beans.
World Link TV aired an interview on Noam Chomsky back in the days when TV was worth watching. A heckler jived him about his views on freedom of speech. Chomsky replied, “Stalin was in favor of freedom of expression as long as it coincided with his views.”
You don’t have to agree with what the left says or does or doesn’t do, that’s your business. Your arm-twisting antics don’t get you anywhere. A “Do as I say, not as I do” attitude.
Your criticisms belie your ability to reason otherwise.
Posted by MDPB from on 02/14 at 11:53 AM -
“Mr. Yeats, you keep beating on the same drum and end up with a cacophony of noise. “
And receive nothing that can be considered a refutation because of the think fog of intellectual cowardice.
“In reality, all you ever do is ‘point with pride and view with alarm.’ “
Sometimes I point with alarm and view with pride. It depends.
“All of those words don’t amount to a hill of beans. “
Because? Oh yeah...when you’re a Leftist sychophant who has abandoned any pretense of intellectual integrity-- you don’t have approach any points brought up by those you disagree with. Such courage! Now I know how a non-Leftist feels in Ward’s classes.
“World Link TV aired an interview on Noam Chomsky back in the days when TV was worth watching. A heckler jived him about his views on freedom of speech. Chomsky replied, “Stalin was in favor of freedom of expression as long as it coincided with his views.” “
Apply this to Leftist in academia and we might agree—or to many in this forum, for that matter. But hey, what point does this make?
“You don’t have to agree with what the left says or does or doesn’t do, that’s your business. “
Thanks for your permission. Its called my freedom as an individual.
“Your arm-twisting antics don’t get you anywhere. “
I was wanting to provide you with something novel—an alternative perspective. I’m sorry if you view anything that conflicts with you identity as an attempt at coercion. Perhaps, when you attain greater intellectual maturity-- you will realize that I respect your freedom to develop your own thoughts and viewpoint far more than those who agree with you.
“A “Do as I say, not as I do” attitude. “
I guess you felt this was a great place to insert a cliche. The point? Who knows...but it sounds as though it fits with the rest of what you wrote.
“Your criticisms belie your ability to reason otherwise.”
Good job! Yes, you demonstarted how to confront none of the points I’ve brought up—while awkwardly engaging in discrediting by intellectual abilities. Great job!
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/14 at 12:24 PM -
Oh, ok, I’ll bring up a couple of points just to make you happy.
“Christians, conservatives, moderates, liberals, entreprenuers, MBA’s and others who believe in our system will not suddenly accept the Leftist assumptions and surrender themselves to their system’s destruction.”
The ‘system’ is doing a fine job of imploding on its own. It doesn’t need any help.
In case you haven’t noticed, the ‘system’ has taken a good kick in the teeth the past few years. Its predatory ways comes back to haunt its builders. Have you ever wondered why?
Read about the Bonus March to gain greater insight about the ‘system.’
Looks like you could use a history lesson today.
“What’s needed is a genuine dialogue between the Left and those whom they have created a racist-type hatred toward.”
Kind of tough to do when you enjoy running the left into the ground and dissing it with reckless abandon. You have the same ‘rascist type hatred’ towards the left. Where is there room for dialogue when you shout everybody down all of the time and accuse them of having no intellectual integrity? Your pre-conceived notions about what is wrong with the left condemns them from the gitgo. Not good.
Posted by MDPB from on 02/14 at 12:49 PM -
Cannon,
I wouldn’t call myself either liberal or leftist.I gave up on this particular system being workable and sustainable quite awhile ago.The main reason for that is because there often times is not alot of difference between left and right(in fact,they can and do often mirror each other in alot of ways).Same goes for political party affiliations.You can dress people up in all kinds of ways and present them differently but it won’t change who they are.I’m also not fond of being lied to by “my"government,over and over and over.Lying is a way of really diminishing those you lie to,I don’t respond well to that.To think political figures of any stripe actually put the people they claim they speak for and act in behalf of first is foolish.If that lovely mix of politics,religion,media and corporate interests actually gave a rat’s ass about human beings,then it would be a really short time before most of the problems we face could actually be solved.Too few have too much to gain(money,power,prestige,publicity)and too much to hide to give that up by reasoning nicely within specific parameters.It’s not ALL about armed resistance and plotting “radical"plans.What alot of people whose voices are minimized or pecked to pieces would like to see is working outside the specific parameters of the current system/paradigm.
I’m even willing to communicate with Cannon one on one via email,since space here is small compared to the issues all this touches on.One essay can’t cover all bases.If Cannon is willing to hear to me and not just try to prove me wrong,than I afford him the same courtesy.Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/14 at 12:57 PM -
MDBP,
Were making progress....
“The ‘system’ is doing a fine job of imploding on its own. It doesn’t need any help. “
As an MBA, I happen to know something about this system. Our economy is still the most innovative and dynamic on the planet. The fact is that Ward and other Leftist don’t really anticipate our system imploding—like Communism imploded. Most Marxists abandoned that idea/fantasy decades ago and only bring it up now to deflect from their genocidal fantasies. Really, read a real economist every so often...it might help you to build a better arguement.
“In case you haven’t noticed, the ‘system’ has taken a good kick in the teeth the past few years.”
Yes, yes...and this was said during the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and now. The sky has always been falling but Americans have managed to maintain the most productive, efficient and innovative economy on the planet.
“ Its predatory ways comes back to haunt its builders. Have you ever wondered why? “
Every choice that is made has consequences and bad choices are no exception. Companies make bad choices, no doubt, and most of the time the market makes them pay for these choices. The market made Enron and WorldCom pay for its choices-- not the Leftists or anti-Capitalists or terrorists. The market is also making the US pay for the bad choices of supporting totalitarians. I’m a firm believer of consequences—as is every rational thinker. Free market capitalism requires free people to run most efficiently. By ignoring the right of every individual to possess a minimal degree of freedom/accountability (internally and externally), the US made choices that caused instability and artificial constraints within its system. Fortunately, the system is highly organic and can be shaped and adapted. Indeed, it has been shaped and adapted and will continue to be so.
To clarify, I have no hatred toward the Left. I merely have points of contention.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/14 at 01:29 PM -
Mom,
I welcome any exchange of viewpoints and I am grateful to hear your courteous tone. It is refreshing and I will aspire to return the same to you. My hope is not to be right or to prove you wrong. My goal is merely to develop and explore my own beliefs, thoughts, ideas and contributions to others.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/14 at 01:50 PM -
The market saddled the Enron stockholders with Enron’s inability to be an honest entity as a business, not Enron. Ken Lay is hardly a beacon of hope for capitalism. Selling his shares while reassuring the suckered stockholders that things are peachy does not make a forthright CEO. More like a robber baron, maybe?
You are correct, America will move forward, regardless of how the US government treats her.
“Some patriots love their country, others want to rape it.”
Posted by MDPB from on 02/14 at 02:08 PM -
MDPB,
“The market saddled the Enron stockholders with Enron’s inability to be an honest entity as a business, not Enron.”
Yes, but it also made Enron a worthless stock and co,pletely negated this entity.
“Ken Lay is hardly a beacon of hope for capitalism.”
I agree. Ken Lay isn’t symbolic of capitalism as much as he is of corruption—which is a phenomenon that affects every system. No system can fully anticipate or prevent the darker elements of human nature from affecting it. This fact, unfortunately, goes beyond the scope of political and economic systems—while having a profound impact on these systems.
“ Selling his shares while reassuring the suckered stockholders that things are peachy does not make a forthright CEO. More like a robber baron, maybe? “
I agree. Somewhere along the line he forgot what an awesome reward actually adding value to people and doing the right thing is. He betrayed the ideals of free market capitalism and American values. As a punishment, I would propose that he be forced to listen to lectures by Chomsky—while tied to an undersized chair with a gimp ball in his mouth. At random intervals, an upper-middle class Chomskyite will spin him around and whisper vulgarities in his ear. Thirty years of this absurb, monotonous, degrading and senseless torture is only a taste of what he deserves.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/14 at 02:51 PM -
Canon:
“What’s needed is a genuine dialogue between the Left and those whom they have created a racist-type hatred toward.”
“I love the police as they kick the shit out of me on the street” Zappa
“to advocate genocide against the whites, capitalists, conservatives and corporate workers is OK.”
If you say so!
“Yes, its OK to advocate the destruction of the US systemâ€?which implies mass killings of tens of millions-- “
What’s worse? Implying the mass killings of tens of millions ("the left") or actually killing tens of millions (US system.)
“The reason is that the Left suffers from intellectual cowardice, while seeking to project a moral supremacy that does not exist.”
What do you want people like Ward Churchill to do, use a gun? If he’s a coward, than what are we? All we’re doing is typing.
Moral Supremacy? You’re forgetting about the illicit sex and dangerous drugs “the Left” likes so much!“It does not exist because the logical consequences of what the the radical Left advocates”
George Bush very clearly saw the logical consequences of invading Iraq.
use more paragraphs.
Posted by elches1917 from on 02/14 at 03:43 PM -
Maybe a little progress. Can’t be too progressive, though, we must continue to beat up on capitalism with undying fervor. har
There is corruption in anything, and ‘sovietized’ America wins hands down. Communism never did prevail in the Soviet Union. Who knows what it was?
In 1928, the Soviet Union became the first modern state to legalize abortion. However, it was not for the benefit of women, but for the then leaders of the Soviet Union. They got a lot of practice. Legal abortion was there for their convienence. It was also discovered that after the sixth to seventh abortions, women became sterile.
In 1951, there were 1.5 million illegal abortions in the United States. More then than now; abortion needs to be a legal. Too many problems associated with its illegality. My mother once informed me that there was a woman in the neighborhood where I grew up that did abortions on a regular basis. It is folly to return to those days. There was no more ‘moral clarity’ back then as there is today.
In my home state, the Russian population that lived in their farming area was rumored to have flown the Russian flag. Right here in the good old US of A.
Anyway, I digress. Our problems are of a sociological bent more than they are of an economic conundrum.
The US government needs to get off of the world’s back. It doesn’t give two hoots about people. Any segment of the world’s population is expendable to the US government. Right now, it is Iraqis.
I am beginning to think that the election went according to plan. The Shiites will ally themselves with Iran. The US gov will build a scary case against the Iranians for ‘subverting’ the Iraqi election. Voila, time to invade Iran. It’s a textbook case for the Army War College. Time for that Judas Goat to enter the sheep pasture. Iran is the new scapegoat.
Posted by MDPB from on 02/14 at 04:57 PM -
“What’s worse? Implying the mass killings of tens of millions ("the left") or actually killing tens of millions (US system.) “
Let’s see the Left was silent on Saddam killing 1.2 million Iraqis. No protests. No taking to the street. Only a few words- that ignored the corruption of the UN oil-for food program (billions of dollars stolen from the mouths of Iraqi children)- about starving children (i.e., those made into rhetorical points by the Left and Saddam) and nothing about Shiites, Kurds, Marsh Arabs at war with Saddam for 30 years.
80-100 million lives purged by the Leftists in the former Soviet Union, N. Korea, China, Vietnam, etc…
A few hundred thousand killed in the Sudan, today. Where were those protests? Ooops, you couldn’t make a anti-American point by speaking against Islamic fascists.
Gays murdered, women oppressed and free thought/expression denied in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran...Oh yeah, the “I can’t speak against Islamic fascists thing”. I understand. You can’t speak out against totalitarianism because to blame any of the countless deaths that result from it would harm your anti-American arguement? Your right, it would...but why must you value your identity more than human life.
“What do you want people like Ward Churchill to do, use a gun? If he’s a coward, than what are we? “
He’s a coward because he omits consequences from his own logic, uses rhetoric that demands action in relation to the logic employed and preys on the intellectual immaturity of undergrads, whom he prevents from being anything other than a sychophant. Ward doesn’t create thinkers- only groupies.
“George Bush very clearly saw the logical consequences of invading Iraq.”
Yes, and there were consequences for not invading Iraq that involved a certainty of death, torture, rape as a political tool, mass graves, the complete supression of individual liberty and new misery brought about by Saddam and his sons.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA on 02/14 at 05:23 PM -
Cannon, how many of those things have happened anyway? Most or all. Even if we had benevolent intentions, the Iraq war would have still been a pretty shaky idea. We would have been trying to save Iraq from itself. That usually works out pretty bad. Maybe we need a support group for totalititarian dictatorships..
Posted by Keruchi from on 02/14 at 10:04 PM -
“Cannon, how many of those things have happened anyway? Most or all.”
So far, 1.2 million people haven’t been murdered. Millions of Shiites, Kurds and Marsh Arabs don’t have to fear for their lives or their children’s lives at the hands of a sadistic regime. If you were a Shiite or Kurd or Turkoman or Christian - or 80% of Iraq’s polulation, your perspective may be different than that of a Leftist in San Fran or CU.
“ Even if we had benevolent intentions, the Iraq war would have still been a pretty shaky idea. “
I’d contend, leaving him in power would have been an equally shaky idea. For the region, as well as for the Iraqi people.
“We would have been trying to save Iraq from itself. That usually works out pretty bad.”
I believe we are trying to save the region from itself, which has started with Iraq. Perhaps it will turn out badly. My hope/faith is that it will not. It will be difficult to turn out worse than the strategy of the last 60 years-- when we supported tyrants.
“ Maybe we need a support group for totalititarian dictatorships.”
Its called the United Nations. Yes, the UN allows human rights abusers (Saudia Arabia, Sudan, China) to sit on the Human Right’s Commission...so they can talk through their issues without being judged. Major powers, like France and Russia, actually listen to their problems and concerns. They’re not bad...just misunderstood. If those who value human liberty really cared, they’d understand that sometimes million of people just want to be oppressed and annihilated by totalitarians. Its a culture thing or maybe a religious thing. Both? If American’s would just accept the legitimacy and constraints of a body composed of totalitarians and their sychophants - the world would be a much more peaceful place.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA on 02/14 at 11:24 PM -
Son of a gun, You’ve have obviously never read a book on economics in your life. You lack any commonsense (common post-modern deficiency) what so ever. Capitalism is the most inefficient system ever devised. It uses of resources,labor and energy is insanely backward and massively destructive.
Vibrant? In my lifetime I’ve mostly only seen recession or near recession (recoveries) interspaced by a couple of short ‘booms’ that didn’t trickle down very far. I’ve seen whole neighborhoods, communities, towns, cities, regions go down the tubes. The progressive impoverishment of the new working class (middle class) disguised and mitigated by ever increasing debt. The loss of most of its industry, now a net importer of food. Strained crumbling infrastructure. Huge trade deficits, massive debt. Dismal educational system (this article is exhibit A) lethal healthcare system...........
.
In fact I do see it imploding, in fact it’s inevitable because it’s radically out of step with reality. The only thing propping this dismal failure up is its military might, its domination of capitalism and its propaganda/porn.
The revolution is the world turning its back on it as any sort of viable sustainable model. That’s already happening.“The question really is whether America can remain a great power or a dominant power if it becomes primarily a service economy, and I doubt that,” Kissinger said in an India Financial Express article that appeared in July 2003. “I think that a country has to have a major industrial base in order to play a significant role in the world.”
You mean the outcry against the sanctions? That some estimates go as high as two million Iraqis killed by them.
Sudan? Maybe we should bomb their only pharmaceutical plant again.
You mean when George the First fed Kurds and Shiites to Saddam after encouraging them to revolt? “Whoops, that wouldn’t be prudent.”
Heah,I believe the UN should be dissolved because it nothing but a tool, although an imperfect one (surly and uncooperative at times) of Western, mostly American imperialism80-100 million? Capitalism has killed a billion people! See, I can come up with wild figures too, its probably a lot more accurate. Did you know that Capitalism isn’t trying to make peoples lives better? It’s trying to rip them for everything it can get. Duh!
You weren’t named after that fat, balding, middle-aged, 70’s TV detective Frank Cannon?...or is it just because you like to shoot your mouth off? Why am I censored on this site but this little green lizard is given free rein to spout his disinformation.
I don’t have or nor want email.Posted by Red neck from The South on 02/15 at 12:52 AM -
You know what guys?Thanks.THIS kind of stuff is exactly why nothing changes.Debate is fine,needed,lovely even,but I swear to GOD,anytime I present my ideas and thoughts,a shouting match ensues,and no workable,DO-Able ideas come out of it.Not that the various statements and arguements here are of no merit at all,they are.But the house is on fire folks,sitting around arguing about which room is on fire while the whole thing burns does nothing to stop the damage.
Cannon,I asked you to email me,I wish you would.Not to win you over,not to argue with you,but to simply find points we CAN agree on and take it from there.Understand,I don’t have tons of heartbeats to devote to this effort,but both sides could be learning from each other rather than trying to drill each other with witty reparte’.(yeah I know,the we can share a Coke and sing in perfect harmony)
Meanwhile,back at the rez,people are dropping like flies.And I wish,with all my heart,more people could see,that until we as a nation back the efforts of American Indians to have basic,simple needs(not wants,and not “luxuries” that many people assume are their “right"to have)met,to have control over land they live on(and not have it loaned out,sold out,destroyed for energy interests and so on),and be left to the business of healing the people,feeding the people properly,getting proper health care,until the majority of Americans can get behind that,well,it will be business as usual,a sort of fiddling while Rome burns so to speak.I was sort of hoping this essay would spark something in that arena.
Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/15 at 07:00 AM -
Sorry for the snarky-ness above,but I am frustrated beyond all recognition these days for endless reasons.Trying to move past that since it’s not constructive.
Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/15 at 07:42 AM -
Red neck,
Here’s the thing...all you’ve got is anti-American cliches and the ability to regurgitate the same overused, unsupported arguements. Nothing terribly unique. I don’t mind your insistence on using personal insults to make your point. That is to be expected from those who lack the intellectual maturity to engage in civil dialogue. Of course, this style has consequences that you may not have considered. Namely, you come off as being an hysterical conformist to a political identity-- while serving to make the “cause” that you advocate (which I assume is hating capitalism, America and honest debate) suspect to your audience. Come now Red, is it hard to see why your political identity is viewed as repulsive and is irrelevant? You make it that way? Why is that? My guess is that your goal is to convince no one, pursuade no one or to enlighten no one. Anything resembling problem-solving, adding value to you fellow human or building understanding—you reject. You label those whom you disagree as spreading “disinformation” or worse—while projecting the persona of an intellectual retard. Why is that? My theory is that your objective is to impress a small group of folks who get together and play “intellectual” or “radical”. From your diatribe, I have to assume and hope that your not the brightest member of your group. Otherwise, the level of boredom and nausea radiating from your group would be unbearable. Really, find yourself a Leftist smarter than yourself to serve as your mentor. You still may not make a compelling arguement-- but hopefully he/she will help to make you a tad more interesting.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/15 at 08:48 AM -
“Mom,” if I were you, I’d go ahead and define those particular “needs” to people, so there’s no room for misunderstanding what you mean. I don’t say this to be snarky, only that it’s a common problem in this culture for the general public to not even remember what it truly means to “need” something. The mass media deliberately blurs the line between necessities and luxuries all the time.
Enjoyed your piece very much. You talk about “buzzing around making lives for ourselves,” and this is one of the conundrums surrounding our ability to make positive change. So many people get stuck on the treadmill, and it takes them decades, perhaps a lifetime, to understand the true source of their unhappiness. By the time they do understand, they fear that it’s too late to make the necessary changes, and they don’t know how. Or they literally cannot afford to. In my case, for instance, my job doesn’t allow much time for political action (even if I knew exactly what action would be best), but I couldn’t persuade Management to let me have a part-time schedule. Since I need health coverage, going without a job is pretty much out of the question. I could live very nicely (by my own standards) on part-time labor, but this is simply not allowed. Over-employment, underemployment, or unemployment.
Those are the “choices.” God bless America.Posted by alsis38 from Portland, OR on 02/15 at 09:17 AM -
Alsis,I can’t presume to be the “spokesman"for Indigenous peoples,but common sense would say some simple points to work upon would be these:
(let me also say,that I am familiar,in a personal way with conditions on Pine Ridge and Rosebud reservations in SD.These particular points may or may not apply to other places in the reservation system,since I am not as familiar with those places and the people living there)
1)A closer look needs to be taken at"border towns"which provide the lion’s share of alcohol to reservations,while the simple act of finding healthy,nutritious food requires a drive of nearly two hours from Pine Ridge or Rosebud to get to what most of us consider a decent grocery store with alot of selection.
2)Housing,most of which is substandard,and certainly not adequate for SD winters.
3)Health care,with large focus on diabetes treatment and alcohol addiction and it’s ravages.If one wants to end the scourge of alcohol,then there needs to be treatment,large scale,to replace the endless supply.
4)Something(or a number of things)to provide Indian youth with an alternative to drug and alcohol usage(large scale),with time on their hands,nothing to do,and transgenerational pain/legacy at work,kids need something to encourage them forward.
Space is not going to allow me to name much more,but I’d say food(consistant supply,adequate and nutritionally sound),shelter,and healing the ravages of alcohol would be a good starting point.AND,LISTENING to the voices of those on reservations,even conflicting ones.Connections can be made,even from far away.Interested readers can contact me for more on this.Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/15 at 09:55 AM -
A man who is the head of his own household and who invades and occupies another household in the neighborhood (because he claims that the conditions there were intolerable and needed such a strong intervention)... yet does not satisfactorily attend to the dire needs of his own household… is a hyprocrite and probably possessive of an alterior motive.
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/15 at 11:14 AM -
It was rumored that the commander at Fort Buford had a still in his headquarters and offered a steady supply of ‘firewater’ to the local Native Americans.
He just wanted to make a little extra cash at somebody else’s expense. Just some more shameless exploitation of the American ‘untermenschen.’
Posted by MDPB from on 02/15 at 11:19 AM -
I promised “Mom” I’d say a few words on the piece; I did awhile ago, but the entry was lost. I said something like “Oxhugs.” The thrust of this piece is welcome ‘cause it’s in support of someone who stands for a real challenge to not only The Powers (currently in place), but to “civilization” itself. In another lesiurely (we-could-do-without-it) piece by Mickey Z interviewing a radio host today we find the following: “there’s a growing sense now, some people don’t want things fixed, they feel they will profit by monkey-wrenching the works. And that’s disheartening. When you can’t trust the plumber, you’ll never defecate in piece again.” Well, Mom and Ward will be the first to tell you that you can actually go outside and defecate in the woods. But that wouldn’t occur to the Middle Left. This has zero to do w necessarily advocating monkey-wrenching, but everything to do with encouraging thinking outside the box. If people don’t get over the notion that it’s going to be impossible to make advances w/o offending nice people they’re gonna be stuck in what Mom is ranting against. And if they think they’re gonna get somethin’ done w/o severe anger (while Indians freeze to death in South Dakota...to cite one example) BEING MANIFESTED...they’re going to get more Z articles to bring on ZZZZZ. See my piece on http://www.selvesandothers.org posted today as something inspired by people like Mom.
Posted by Richard Oxman from Ward's Realm on 02/15 at 11:39 AM -
“A man who is the head of his own household and who invades and occupies another household in the neighborhood “
In short, you’re arguement is that Saddam had a legitimate right to oppress and murder his own people, threaten his neighbors and defy international law. The rights of those murdered and raped and tortured were of lesser value than Saddam’s sovereignty as “head of household”? In short, the “neighborhood” should do nothing and hope that Saddam would re-order his house to be more humane, while hoping that his history of aggression and brutality would not be a behavioral pattern in the future. Yes, the “neighborhood” should have trusted the ability of Saddam to reform himself-- and staked the lives their people and the Iraqi people on this faith in Saddam? Some might call this wreckless. 80% of the Iraqi people would call this a criminal lapse of moral authority.
“ yet does
not satisfactorily attend to the dire needs of his own household...”Wow...all things are possible through moral relativism. Yes, the fact that we haven’t done nearly enough for the nation’s poor justifies condemning how many to die? How many mass graves needed to be filled before it would have awakened your conscious? The fact is that the Left has a hard time convincing Americans or the Left that they oppose intervention in Iraq to save lives—since they offered no plan or protest or advice that could not be found in the state-run media of the Arab world.
“ is a
hyprocrite and probably possessive of an alterior motive. “Nader, I read this exact point on the Arab News—a state-run media outlet that is used to prop up the Saudi regime (i.e., justify totalitarianism). For me, I tend to first question the motives of those who abhor human liberty and are opposed to the will of 80% of Iraqis—as well as those who engage in intellectual contortion, providing cover to Saddam. That’s just me.
At any rate, Saddam was removed from power and will likely be executed, much to the delight of the Iraqi people. The Left couldn’t stop this because their arguements were unconvincing and were sabatoged by their anti-Americanism. That’s over. The question now is about creating a better life for the Iraqi people and affording hope to the region. I assume that you support the insurgents (I could be wrong) because their success will help you to score rhetorical points—at the expense of the Iraqi people. For my part, I have faith that the power of individual freedom and accountability will unleash the latent greatness of the Arab people.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/15 at 12:02 PM -
“I assume that you support the insurgents (I could be wrong) because their success will help you to score rhetorical points—at the expense of the Iraqi people.”
Not a correct assumption, CY. Bu don’t let that stop you from ass-u-me-ing further.
What I am in support of, however, are string measures that contribute towards the awakening of many of my countrymen, who are either in a slumber or a stupor, about the world around them.
What I am supportive of, is the uncovering of the insiduous effect that propaganda has in our lives.
And what I am supportive of, is the questioning of all authoritarianism which asserts that it knows what it good for us better than we do.
Thanks for asking.
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/15 at 12:19 PM -
Cannon, you are unable to forgive Saddam’s long list of inhumane actions. Indeed, his transgressions probably fill reams of paper.
Who was it that enabled those dastardly deeds?
Seems as though the leaders hier in zie homeland were sending him a steady supply of armaments with full knowlege of Mr. Hussein’s wily ways. Why can they be forgiven and not Saddam?
There is no escaping into some long reply about intellectual cowardice or sacrifice of hundreds of millions of lives to secure a political identity. Those epistles must be kind of tiring by now.
Posted by MDPB from on 02/15 at 01:26 PM -
“Not a correct assumption, CY. Bu don’t let that stop you from ass-u-me-ing
further. “Its comforting to know.
“What I am in support of, however, are string measures that contribute
towards the awakening of many of my countrymen, who are either in a slumber
or a stupor, about the world around them. “...Or, perhaps, the conversion of those who are unconvinced by the rhetoric that paints American values and choices as inherently evil. “Awakening” meaning the ability to ignore human tragedy and suffering when it fails to support a rhetorical point? Or is it the “awakening” that allows Americans to enjoy the identity of self-loathing and adolescent ramblings? In other words, you have a unique insight that the rest of us need to accept in order to be “smart” or “humane” or “intellectual” or “worldly”?
“What I am supportive of, is the uncovering of the insiduous effect that
propaganda has in our lives.”This, of course, is done by more propaganda, intellectual distortions, insulting the intellect of those who disagree and quoting from the state-run media of totalitarian regimes. Interesting.
“And what I am supportive of, is the questioning of all authoritarianism which asserts that it knows what it good for us better than we do. “
Me too. I question why the US gov’t continues to support totalitarian regimes. I also question the authoritarian tendencies of the Leftist, academic establishment. Moreover, I question why those on the Left and the Right do not speak up for those whose lives are destroyed by authoritarian regimes—even as they teach their children to hate the US (so as to distract from the social, economic and political disaster they’ve created). I believe in the soveriegnty and potential of the individual, so naturally I have big problems with authority and authoritarianism. I always have. As I’ve gotten older, however, I’ve learned to communicate in ways that show the futility of certain authoritarianism - in the workplace, in realtion to others, politically (somewhat), etc. It took a long time to learn how to effectively stand up to authority. In fact, I’m still learning.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/15 at 01:53 PM -
MDPB,
Who was it that enabled those dastardly deeds?
The US, Russia, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, China,Kuwait, the UN, etc—all helped Saddam maintain power and contributed to the misery of the Iraqi people before the 1st Gulf war. Afterwards, it was the same list with the exception of the US and his neighbors. Also, the Left was used as a propaganda tool to highlight the deaths of Iraqi children, which they blamed on the West, rather than the corruption of Saddam’s regime and the UN’s oil-for-food program. Maybe if the Left had massive protests prior to the first Gulf War, because of the genocide of the Marsh Arabs and Shiites and Kurds, Saddam might have been driven from power sooner. Unfortunately, there wasn’t much of an anti-American point to be made there, I suppose.
“ Why can they be forgiven and not Saddam? “
As that question to the relatives of 1.2 million murdered Iraqis or those raped, tortured and denied basic liberty by Saddam. For my part, I hold those decision-makers accountable now, as I did then. Its your position that absolves them from accountability (i.e., Saddam should not have been removed from power) not mine.
Like I said, the time has passed to debate the removal of Saddam. It is done. The debate and action has shifted to create a better life for the Iraqis. The question now is: Do you want the Iraqi people and the region to have a better life for themselves and their children? Or, would you prefer that the Iraqi people suffer via (a) Saddam returned to power or (b) minority (Sunnis) obtain power through force to re-institute the oppression of 80% of the population.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/15 at 02:12 PM -
Leftist, rightist, schmeftist, schmightist. It matters little to me whether you drive your mind’s vehicle with your left or right turn signals on all the time. What matters more is that you drive your mind with a critical habit of thought, as William Sumner once said.
http://www.criticalthinking.org/images/quoteBox.gifMy country was far too willing to shed blood without first engaging in a genuinely critical evaluation for the need to do so. To the contrary, it encouraged its citizens to jump on the blood-shedding bandwagon by use of fear.
That is not the kind of world that I want our children to grow up into.
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/15 at 02:16 PM -
There was no saving Saddam from the very beginning when the CIA employed him way back in the late 1950’s. What made anybody think that it could be done when he gained the presidency of Iraq?
Seems as though kissing his feet all of these years has landed the world into
a fine kettle of fish at this point in time.As long as it paid, everything was fine. Now, the American taxpayer is paying through the nose.
There is no way that it can be any more stoopid. I’m probably wrong there, too.
Posted by MDPB from on 02/15 at 02:33 PM -
Am I the only one who finds many aspects of our in-house broken record’s song immensely peculiar ? For example, where is it written that if one criticizes one’s country, one must hate it ?
I kind of liked Nader’s (the original’s) adage about that: “If you love your country, work to make it more lovable.”
Weirdly enough, I don’t think that constantly attacking a few folk on campuses and in Lefty newspapers (with no substantiation for one’s claims, incidentally-- just the same blast of hot air over and over and...) does anything to make the country more lovable. Nope, ‘fraid not. I don’t get the feeling that such sentiment is the product of a person that loves anything or anyone. It’s the product of a bully and a coward in search of small, vulnerable targets against which to vent his own hatreds and prejudices.
Furthermore, are we automatically to assume that each and every last insurgent in Iraq is from somewhere else, or wants Sadaam back in power ?
If Cannon had lived in 1776, he would’ve been a Tory. Like most modern-day American reactionaries that pretend to love “freedom.”
Posted by alsis38 from Portland, OR on 02/15 at 03:19 PM -
Not peculiar, but reinforcing of a certain dynamic that is discussed in behavioral science.
When your decisions and actions are chiefly prompted and justified by your perception of someone’s else’s “bad-ness” or “evil-ness”, you will tend to look for badness in others to justify your actions and decisions.
Our behaviours almost always fall follow a pattern. The contexts may change, but how we respond to them proceeds along an identifiable patterned groove. Generally speaking, of course.
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/15 at 03:34 PM -
(((sigh)))
Not being one to stop the public discourse,and by all means,fire when ready,tally ho and all that,but umm,well,basically what’s happening here is my own voice being ignored,shouted down,as usual it seems these days by GUYS,who in some form or fashion want to take this whole thing to Iraq again,when Iraq is just a SYMPTOM of the disease.And god help me,PLEASE do not say I’m minimizing Iraqi deaths,because that would mean you need to go back and re-read the essay I wrote.Remember that?My frustration(and believe me,I’ve been patient,civil,actually pretty polite mostly I think,and open hearted)comes not from the ensuing debate above,but from the lack of discussion on other points which could be springboards for direct action on alot of levels.
I honestly feel like presenting some individuals with a nice gold trophy of an upside down horsie,the offical Dead Horse Loving Cup prize,but then that would make me a bit of an ass,thus silencing my own voice even moreso.What’s transpiring here right now is why women like me rarely have the courage to speak(or write where anyone else can read it)and then FEEL heard.It’s also why many of us don’t get into Direct Action,and can not connect to others of like mind and heart.Imagine what the millions of women of my"demographic"could do if we COULD connect.I’m annoyed because in the last year,EVERY time I have attempted to bring these issues to light,it’s been exclusively MALES who have taken my thoughts and drag this whole thing down to personal swordsmanship(and I gotta wonder if it’s not a matter of who’s sword is bigger)and almost inevitably back to Iraq.Yes Iraq is important,crucial,and urgent,I would be the last to argue that it was anything but.However,I cannot do a thing IN Iraq,whereas I CAN do something HERE in our own proverbial back yard.As far as I can see,these little attacks and snideness bring nothing new to the table.Hello?Current ways of doing things aren’t working....could we at the very least agree on that one?Regardless of who is at"fault"?
Now,for the wonderful and wise men who actually HAVE responded to some of what I posed here,Thank You.Bless you.I hope to continue communicating with you personally.Otherwise,my own voice being squashed is not how I’ll spend my heartbeats and heart’s calling.This Mom has about had enough.
Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/15 at 06:15 PM -
Well, I’m sorry, Mom. I’ve actually been giving thought to what you’ve said, despite the inevitable white noise borne of Cannon’s trolling.
BTW, I’m a woman, and you are more than welcome to email me with any further info you have. I try to keep up on NA issues locally, at least a little bit. Unfortunately what you’re talking about has an all-too-familiar ring, despite the difference in region. There’s also the whole casino/gambling issue in the PacNW to muddy the whole thing further.
I think one of the reasons many of us limit our actions to charitable giving (or trying to locate reputable charities, at any rate) is the phobia of being perceived as just another White do-gooder who wants to come in and save the benighted poor Native folk from themselves.
If that makes any sense… :/
Posted by alsis38 from Portland, OR on 02/15 at 06:22 PM -
Good point,Alsis.I don’t advocate charging onto the nearest reservation and being Mighty Mouse(here I come to save the day...),that’s a part of some of the problem Indians and other indigenous peoples deal with,alot.That sort of attitude will not be met with much welcome either.
Rather,a good place to start is just get into the history of Indians vs the US government.Educate yourself.To get a good overview of Indian views,Vine Deloria Jr is one good author to start with.Reading perhaps Custer Died For Your Sins:An Indian Manifesto, would help alot in looking at how to approach things.One other thing too,you gotta go into this with a thick skin,otherwise you won’t be open to the message.Yep some white trashing is in there,but under the circumstances and with the valid points made,I can overlook that.Whites are accepted often and willingly by Indians IF there isn’t patronizing and alot of guilt tossed into it.
There are also a few good helping organizations out there,run by people who know the people living on the reservations,they can be sort of a bridge into those communities if you feel ackward.I can give you those on request,just email me.(I can’t see your email address anywhere)The historical info is out there,I have a list of well respected and researched books I could also recommend.AND I’ll also mention there are certain manners one needs to keep in mind,little but important social guidelines to respect,which I’m willing to lay out as well.
Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/15 at 07:01 PM -
Having lived in border towns for the past 25 years, my impression is that tribal memberships have come to view the machinations of their own tribal governments --under the insidious oversight the nefarious BIA-- with an abiding distrust and disdain. Believe it or not, tribal politicos can be even more susceptible to the graft and corruption of corporate solicitors than our “representatives” in the Federal Government.
Posted by Steve Cone from 4 Corners (National Sacrifice Area) USA on 02/15 at 07:43 PM -
“Weirdly enough, I don’t think that constantly attacking a few folk on campuses and in Lefty newspapers (with no substantiation for one’s claims, incidentally-- just the same blast of hot air over and over and...) does anything to make the country more lovable.”
I’m merely pointing out an alternative viewpoint. Since the Left seems uncomfortable with self-reflection and self-criticism, I felt compelled to offer assistance. I’m sure that you’d much rather have a competition based on who can best conform to the “Leftist” vision of the world. Yes, that will expand your ability to analyze, problem-solve and employ logic. Why ponder other viewpoints and confront the questions they present?
“ It’s the product of a bully and a coward in search of small, vulnerable targets against which to vent his own hatreds and prejudices. “
I vented neither hate nor prejudice, only a perspective—a viewpoint. Also, I considered none of those I’ve interacted with on this forum to be small or vulnerable. Sure, we have a different way of viewing the world and my qualities as a human being-- which is why I find our interaction so valuable.
“Furthermore, are we automatically to assume that each and every last insurgent in Iraq is from somewhere else, or wants Sadaam back in power ? “
No, they just want a totalitarian state where 20% of the population dominates 80%. Yes, the folks who use retarded kids as suicide bombers, want a return to the type of war that the Left didn’t protest. Some are jihadis who want a different kind of totalitarianism or just to negate themselves to satiate their hatred and glorify their hatred.
“If Cannon had lived in 1776, he would’ve been a Tory. “
I’m on the side of those who fight for human liberty, not to institute a totalitarian regime. Your implication is that insurgents, who have nothing but contempt for freedom and a people’s right to choose, are fighting for freedom? They are not—only the right to be oppressors.
“ Like most modern-day American reactionaries that pretend to love “freedom.” “
Yes, you are saying that Zarqawi and the Sunni insurgents are fighting for freedom. You equate my concept of freedom with the desires of insurgents in Iraq? They are not the same. Freedom means every citizen has a right to a voice in his and her future, and is accountable for his/her future. That’s the antipode of what the insurgents want, just ask them.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA on 02/15 at 07:47 PM -
Steve Cone, it’s been that way ever since Little Big Man betrayed Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull was assassinated at Standing Rock. Ain’t nothing new about the BIA officials being distrusted by local native populations.
In my home state, it was illegal for a Native American to enter a drinking establishment up until 1959. I can remember my parents talking about Native Americans performing a war dance on one of the reservations about 50 miles from where we were at the time. It was 1956 or 57. My parents were concerned and filled with fear. There were some scary moments back then.
Mom, thanks for your patience. I was wondering how long your patience would last.
Posted by MDPB from on 02/15 at 08:19 PM -
Don’t lose heart, Mom Anonymous. For if Einstein were a regular poster here, he would remind you that “great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.”
Shifting to mediocre ideas, on the other hand, may get you a better reception from some.
Nah, scratch that. You’d be even more anonymous then.
NR, a not-so-anonymous single dad
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/15 at 09:24 PM -
Cliches? Unsupported arguements? Over an over again, the same old pro-American cliches. You “regurgitate the same overused, unsupported arguments.” That you got from the media and conservative/liberal think tanks “Nothing terribly unique.’’ Heard all this my entire life. If that doesn’t work, then you just start twisting facts or just boldface lying, name-calling (Even stuck Stalin in there.) You are disruptive and your intention is to disrupt, take away from the discussion of this article. Which is fine with me, Because you are bringing a some what relevant perspective but you’re going to have to stop the lying and distortion. The perspective is of course America is locked mortal battle with the forces of darkness and totalitarianism “Islamic fascism” Which is just the worst of the Cold War Rederic redirected. (You know the kind of shit that got almost blew up the world.) It’s just as dangerous today not only because it encourages and justifies belligerency. But because it also stigmatizes any attempt at progress. Simple, basic, obvious stuff, huh?
I am anti-American for a simple basic reason that America is repulsive. It’s impoverishing the world, it’s even impoverishing itself. You can find that repulsive, but billions around the world are finding the American model increasingly repulsive. Pointing out how repulsive America really is, is not irrelevant. It’s extremely subversive, hence always the extreme reaction. “Who the hell do you think you are? Trying to blow billions of dollars worth of advertising and marketing. America is the freest, most advance, humane, fair, democratic, prosperous, intelligent, kindest, gentlest nation that has ever been or ever will be. Bar none!”The big problem is that we don’t have a left engaging in a real critical analyses of capitalism. But is stuck in superficial debates, reactionary responses and yes, some tired clichés. Instead of actually focusing, exposing and publicizing the horrendous state of affairs we live under.
“Companies make bad choices, no doubt, and most of the time the market makes them pay for these choices. The market made Enron and WorldCom pay for its choices-“ pay, you mean they got filthy rich?
“Left suffers from intellectual cowardice, while seeking to project a moral supremacy that does not exist.”
We’re a bunch of hypocrites.... oldest clichés out there. Randy Ayn founded a whole “philosophy” on that there premise. I’m sure you’re a fan. Capitalism greatest propaganda coupe was actually selling greed and exploitation as a virtue. The fundamental virtues of freedumb.
“Free market capitalism requires free people to run most efficiently”
What I see is terrible waste and destruction...and you’re just using efficiency as a euphemism for profit.
I’ll give you some credit you at least catch some of my humor (just a little) that’s actually rare.
I already have a mentor, that righteous dude, Charles Johnson.Posted by Red neck from The Trailer of Tears on 02/15 at 09:47 PM -
“I am anti-American for a simple basic reason that America is repulsive.”
From where I am sitting, Red neck, I do not see you as an anti-American. Rather, I see you as an opposer of a certain identity or role that America has historically assumed for itself, and an advocate of another quite different identity or role for America. That does not necessarily make you an anti-American. That just makes you unwilling to accept America as it is and anxious to create an America as it can be. Some people even view that as being uniquely pro-American, I might add.
“I am anti-American for a simple basic reason that America is repulsive.... Capitalism greatest propaganda coupe was actually selling greed and exploitation as a virtue.”
Without getting into a nitty-gritty dialogue with you, in a rather limiting forum, on whether this is actually true or not, can I ask you to consider that systems themselves (i.e. capitalism, socialism, etc.) may not be inherently exploitive, but that their aberrational applications may certainly be?
Authoritarianism can easily breed in any economic system. And I suggest that it is authoritarianism which corrupts both capitalism and socialism, exploiting one human being to the benefit of another.
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/15 at 10:39 PM -
Red neck,
I think your confusing me for an “Objectivist” groupie of Ayn Rand-- “Virtue of Selfishness”? Nope. I am more inclined to the subjectivism of Kierkegaard and Whitman, although she does provide interesting rhetorical arguements. She seemed overly influenced by the towering echoes of Nietzsche, yet disavowed him on grounds that are suspect ("witch doctor” arguement). Anyhow, Objectivism is a myth on which the foundation of our systems is built (capitalism, marxism, etc). It is, no doubt, a necessary myth for the founders of our country, those who plan economies, me, Ward Churchill and those who invent ideas and abstractions of all sorts. Something can be a myth and still remain vital.
I think your issue is not lack of enthusiasm regarding your critique of the US and capitalism. Your issue is the dull, uninspiring rehash of what every other Marxist has said for 100 years. Read some Drucker, Toffler and Demming—this will sharpen your understanding of economics or, at least, how you argue with a Capitalist or post-Capitalist(like myself). Read some Whitman and Paine to get a taste of the spiritual aspect of freedom and Americanism. Hey, if I forced myself to read the entire “I’m Indeginous” essay by Ward, which was painful, you can put down Chomsky and the Arab media for a few hours.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA on 02/15 at 11:19 PM -
Cannon Yonts,
What? You want more?
Posted by Theo from Greece on 02/16 at 04:36 AM -
Individual Responses here:
Steve Cone:Yes indeed,the BIA and it’s police force have done their fair share to cause divisions among Indian communities(and generate fear amongst local whites),the most notorious examples at Wounded Knee II back in the 70’s.The documentary “Incident at Oglala”,is a pretty good overview of that time,as well as Peter Matthieson’s book,In the Spirit of Crazy Horse.Cannon:I knew that essay would be hard for you to read,I was hoping it would help you to understand AIM somewhat better,and AIM is a group I stand in solidarity with even if I don’t agree with every single thing they say.Since you dislike Churchill so much,perhaps you’d be better served by reading Vine Deloria,who is well respected as a legal analyst and scholar.Also Richard Oxman wrote a pretty good piece here back in Oct of last year about the concept of the Buffalo Commons,if you want a different style or perspective on this.
Nader Rider:Being a single parent is a tough gig,even with loads of support(hell,being a parent is hard regardless,lol),anyone who does it and does it well,has my respect and attention.And no,I won’t go mediocre,even if it means no one ever listens,I’ll keep talking,writing and acting on these issues til I’m dead.Why?Simply put,because the way American Indians have been treated since the beginning is wrong,unjust,and genocidal.It speaks to how we as a nation treat others.If we give people living all over this land that little attention or respect,it’s not a far stretch to see how easy it then becomes to do it elsewhere.
I would encourage anyone to familiarize themselves with the issues and/or history surrounding their own local indigenous peoples.If there happen to be any still alive where you are.If not,looking back into the history of the land you live on,who lived there before it was"settled"and how they lived,and why they are gone,could be instructive.Dig around,look for perspectives beyond those of the white settlers,white army,white historians(like those who write school texts),accounts of how indigenous peoples were treated are extensive and detailed(people kept lots of journals and diaries in those times,especially those in"official"capacities),and often the slaughter was recorded with pride and righteousness.
And lastly,Free Leonard Peltier,NOW.
Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/16 at 07:13 AM -
Hey, “Mom,” it’s funny you should mention “Custer Died For Your Sins,” as I’ve actually got an anthology of NA writing in front of me right now, and I just got to the section that retells the story of Custer from a Native’s POV.
Peripherally related: It only adds to the absurdity over the Churchill flap-- and points out how repressive American mass culture continues to become-- when I recall that his school of criticism isn’t really all that new. One of my favorite essays of old was James Baldwin’s *Nothing Personal*, in which he made the connection between the Kennedys’ assasination and the culture of a country that has “nutured and worshipped violence for longer than I’ve been on this Earth...” I’m quoting from memory here, but it’s a fine essay, if you can find it.
Listening to Yonts and his ilk and their one-note blathering is also a reminder that they attack the messenger so fiercely because deep down, they know the message has a ready audience-- and it’s only corporate hegemony of the media that keeps it from being bigger. So often when people are coming down on the Churchills, or Baldwins, etc., there’s an incredible air of paternalism along with the virulent race-baiting;The idea that Americans are “children” who would never, never in a million years have had those dangerous, subversive, “America-hating” ideas if eeeeevil University demogogues hadn’t planted the seeds in their dewicate widdle minds. What crap. The very force of the attack levied against people like Churchill proves just the opposite: A great many Americans do, somewhere in the back of their minds, know what you know. They know that they’re living a lie and that mindless consumption, warmed-over Fox demagoguery (waves at Cannon) or Fundie religious nonsense can only keep the seeds dormant for so long. If they did not have these ideas in their heads already, Churchill (et al) would never have found the audience that he did among the students. It’s human nature to squash one’s own inner fears and to wait for someone else to articulate them first. It’s human nature to be convinced that one is the ONLY ONE with these feelings-- until someone with some intellectual or political cache tells you that you’re not.
I haven’t read *Bury My Heart...* since grade school, either. Yeah, it probably is time to read it again. I also highly reccommend Joy Harjo if you like poetry and/or jazz, Mom.
Posted by alsis38 from Portland, OR on 02/16 at 08:51 AM -
“I knew that essay would be hard for you to read,”
I found it tedious and sophmoric, like a community college student attempting to be lawyerly. Throughout, I felt the awkward attempt of a rather mediocre thinker to construct an arguement around an identity, while pointing to the abstraction of other shades of Leftist identity to lend validity. As I’ve mentioned before, he demonstrates little ability to follow his thoughts through far enough to reach logical or realistic consequences. Instead, he posits adolescent theories and conjecture that are mean’t to conform to a very predictable, “radical” premise. I found his writing style to be indicative of a mediocre thinker as well—which is why I found it painful. At least when reading Chomsky, one can expect a rhythm and tone that is aesthetically pleasing.
“I was hoping it would help you to understand AIM somewhat better,and AIM is a group I stand in solidarity with even if I don’t agree with every single thing they say.”
Is this the national AIM which denounced Ward as a fraud or the Boulder Chapter?
“Since you dislike Churchill so much”
I don’t dislike Ward, I just find him to be an intellectual lightweight who has a unique ability to discredit any cause he associates himself with. In fact, I find his cartoon-like persona amusing and his absurd sense of importance to be quite charming.
“,perhaps you’d be better served by reading Vine Deloria,who is well respected as a legal analyst and scholar. Also Richard Oxman wrote a pretty good piece here back in Oct of last year about the concept of the Buffalo Commons,if you want a different style or perspective on this. “
Perhaps, I will. After all, I possess more Indian blood than Ward (grandmother was half-Cherokee) and should become more familiar with this part of myself. I don’t like to spend too much effort exploring ideological fantasy and pop-philosophies, but ocassionally I indulge my non-productive mental impulses.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/16 at 09:38 AM -
alsis38,
Your arguements rest on the same racist-type foundation you claim to reject. You create labels for those whom you disagree and banter about rhetorical abstractions that you’ve accepted as truth. Between deluding yourself regarding your own grasp of reality, you find the energy to casually dismiss the subjective reality of others. Any mediocre, half-wit racist could provide the same. The difference between a radical Leftist and a radical racist are so trivial as to offer me no real distinction at times. You simply hate and ignore and fail to learn from different categories of people—categories you’ve invented out of intellectual laziness. What’s worse, you’ve incorporated the “silent majority” concept of Faldwell into your thinking-- claiming that a majority of Americans crave the insights of self-negation, self-loathing and moral relativism of Ward. Please! Churchill (et al) have found a very narrow niche market among upper-middle class, adolescent thinkers—who want to surrender to the wreckless noise of ideological sychophants. An identity. Most of these students will find intellectual maturity and actually add value to others (an assumption I base on faith) and a few will aspire to build their own haram of sychophants. This is nothing new or alarming or profound. Indeed, the radical Left does not seek to change anything—since it aspires to create a dialogue that makes meaningful debate and practical compromise impossible. Thus, for those who work to affect change by working within our democratic system (which Leftists have abandoned) and between different value and belief systems—the Left offers nothing to fear except the idea that their son or daughter may waste a year or two as a professor’s groupie or ideological sychophant. To fear an identity that cannot affect change or that lacks the ability to threaten our system-- is absurd. Its like fearing an identity established by a bowling league or key club or fan club. Elect any Leftist, like Ward, to the Senate or Congress or even county government-- and I will change my conclusion. My guess is that Leftist are incapable of projecting any platform in public debate that would not be viewed as repulsive.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/16 at 10:51 AM -
“You create labels for those whom you disagree and banter about rhetorical abstractions that you’ve accepted as truth.”
“The difference between a radical Leftist and a radical racist are so trivial as to offer me no real distinction at times. You simply hate and ignore and fail to learn from different categories of people—categories you’ve invented out of intellectual laziness.”
Thank you for offering an excellent example, the latter quote, of the former quote. It helps to offer effective examples of the point you are making.
Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/16 at 01:09 PM -
Canon:
Can you clarify what you mean the terms “radical leftist” and “the left”? Are they the same or different?
Posted by elches1917 from on 02/16 at 01:12 PM -
Ummm, Cannon… I have to say that after a whole ten days, I’m already really bored with your not-so-thinly-veiled insults and trolling. From now on, feel free to attach your “responses” to me to the leg of a carrier pigeon and send them in the general direction of Lake Superior. You are already addressing your stream of excrement not to me, but to some invisible Leftist monster in your own squirelly little head-- though you pretend otherwise. Why not just make that deliberate misdirection and calculated lack of understanding manifest on the physical plane as well ? Do us all a favor.
If there were a gold medal for projection, you’d win it, hands down.
Don’t bother to address me further, as I won’t be responding.
Posted by alsis38 from Portland, OR on 02/16 at 01:31 PM -
elches1917,
Any definition I offer on the “radical Left” is a matter of subjective interpretation. Admittedly, it encompasses a large hodgepodge of ideological assumptions and viewpoints. What is consistent is the nihlistic nature of the arguements and the nature of nihlism. Namely, the perception that the natural course of everything that it addresses leads to nowhere and aspires to nowhere. That its purpose is to reinforce itself and to cast the void of itself to others.
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA on 02/16 at 02:36 PM -
Cannon Yonts,
Did you just say ‘sophmoric’? Where did I just here that word here on PA? Ummm ... right ... that was me, describing you. Along with—what were my words?—oh yes—how could I forget?—‘stultiloquent charlatan’. Shall I keep teaching you? I sincerely hope you realize the folly in committing yourself to the monstrous stupidity of using these ten-dollar words I just sold you.
I remind you the last time we met, incredibly, I (risking all, so confident was I of your incompetence) actually refuted my own bogus argument for you, finally dangling what ought to have been your immediate response in front of your very eyes and invite you to review that humiliating confirmation of your feeble-mindedness in the Comments to Steven Best’s ‘Killing The Messenger’.
You don’t even know what totalitarianism looks like when it’s in your face. Pitiful.
Apparently you haven’t had enough.
Respond to this:
In September, outside Abu Ghraib, Sheikh Abdul Salam Kubayssi called for Iraqi police and National Guard not to obey Allawi’s orders, claiming that “[He] forgets that America is the one that slaughtered its native Americans and killed millions of Red Indians.”
Ward Churchill’s very existence academically corroborates Sheikh Abdul Salam Kubayssi’s (and many Iraqis’) interpretation of America.
Which is one of the many reasons why Ward Churchill has been attacked by war supporters like you.
(I’m kidding, you analphabet. Do yourself a favor. Don’t respond.)
Posted by Theo from Greece on 02/16 at 08:48 PM -
Corrections:
I meant to say ‘hear’.
(Cannon Yonts meant to say ‘reckless’.)
Posted by Theo from Greece on 02/16 at 08:53 PM -
Last word from the author:
The veiled(thinly)insult shot my way in #52 shows me,that even minding one’s manners,preserving some grace and dignity as one proceeds,is seen as a weakness.One that will be pounced on by bullies.
Which I suppose it CY’s “right”,free speech and all that.However,it doesn’t really add anything new,fresh,or,get this,USEFUL to solving much.So,with that in mind,I’ll exercise my own right,but,because dignity and grace is what I choose to carry myself with whenever possible,I won’t resort to name calling(that would be sophmoric,agreed?).
The Indian way of life,looking at the world,the religion(s),cultures,rituals,customs and so on are not even remotely in the same league as “ideological fantasy"or"pop philosophy”.Good God,have you never read"Black Elk Speaks"or the words of any Indian leader for that matter?It’s not like this stuff is that hard to find for crying out loud.Indigenous peoples lived for THOUSANDS of years with these beliefs,and as ALOT of evidence bears out,they lived well and happily in the process.Still are in many places,but not,sadly,without having to fight like hell for it.I wouldn’t call that,in effect,useless or mindless,and I would DARE you to say it in a room full of Indians.
As for AIM,"which side I’m on"isn’t relevant to this.I’m talking about AIM in it’s original form before greed and other crap got in the way.These guys all were displaced and thrown away by the dominant US culture.They gathered together(especially true at Pine Ridge in the 70’s)to stop their people from being murdered,protect basic human rights,and to draw attention to the US’s repeated neglect of treaties broken,rights denied,abject poverty,and to bring attention to the corruption rampant in how the BIA and Dept of Interior handled “reservation Indians”.Today,I do stand with Autonomous AIM out of Colorado(and Ohio,Tennessee and other states)because in looking at both groups,I tend to favor the one doing the most to actually hold on to the original intent of AIM in it’s early days.
I’m disappointed that CY has been allowed to just run rampant here and disrupt what could have possibly led to productive discussion.If you dislike the guy and the way he chooses to communicate,stop swallowing the bait.Granted,I fell for it too,but not for long.Some folks prefer stirring up emotions rather than an honest intent to learn,despite what they might say.Some Indian Peoples have a way with dealing with those who intend to destroy community building,by ostracizing them,shunning them,and continuing on without their input being allowed to interfere.
As I said,this is IT from me on this.Unless any more responses here relate DIRECTLY to what I wrote,I won’t be responding further.IMO,as small and obviously insignificant as it is,this relentless arguing back and forth could have been done via email to spare the rest of us the damned headache.
Posted by Mom Anonymous from GA,USA on 02/17 at 07:03 AM -
Admittedly, it encompasses a large hodgepodge of ideological assumptions and viewpoints.
Would you say the same about “the right” or “rightest radicals”?
You mentioned nihilism is consistent on “the left”, what is consistent on “the right”?
Posted by elches1917 from on 02/17 at 11:32 AM -
elches1917,
Nihlism is consistent at all extremes.
“I swear I dare not shirk any part of myself,
Not any part of America, good or bad,
Not the promulgation of Liberty—not to cheer up slaves and horrify foreign despots,
Not to build for that which builds for mankind,
Not to balance ranks, complexions, creeds, and the sexes,
Not to justify science, nor the march of equality,
Nor to feed the arrogant blood of the brawn beloved of time.
I swear I am for those that have never been master’d!
For men and women whose tempers have never been master’d,
For those whom laws, theories, conventions, can never master.
I swear I am for those who walk abreast with the whole earth!
Who inaugurate one, to inaugurate all.
I swear I will not be outfaced by irrational things!
I will penetrate what it is in them that is sarcastic upon me!
I will make cities and civilizations defer to me!
This is what I have learnt from America—it is the amount—and it I teach again.
(Democracy! while weapons were everywhere aim’d at your breast,
I saw you serenely give birth to immortal children—saw in dreams your dilating form;
Saw you with spreading mantle covering the world.) “Walt
Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA on 02/17 at 12:08 PM -
One of my favorite Whitman poems is “The City Dead-House”, a poem that he wrote about a dead prostitute lieing on the pavement in close proximity to the United States Capitol. A poem about disposable people in a flawed democarcy. Marginalized citizens discarded through social exclusion.
The City Dead-house indeed.
“By the city dead-house by the gate,
As idly sauntering wending my way from the clangor,
I curious pause, for lo, an outcast form, a poor dead prostitute brought,
Her corpse they deposit unclaim’d, it lies on the damp brick pavement,
The divine woman, her body, I see the body, I look on it alone,
That house once full of passion and beauty, all else I notice not,
Nor stillness so cold, nor running water from faucet, nor odors
morbific impress me,
But the house alone--that wondrous house--that delicate fair house
--that ruin!
That immortal house more than all the rows of dwellings ever built!
Or white-domed capitol with majestic figure surmounted, or all the
old high-spired cathedrals,
That little house alone more than them all--poor, desperate house!
Fair, fearful wreck--tenement of a soul--itself a soul,
Unclaim’d, avoided house--take one breath from my tremulous lips,
Take one tear dropt aside as I go for thought of you,
Dead house of love--house of madness and sin, crumbled, crush’d,
House of life, erewhile talking and laughing--but ah, poor house,
dead even then,
Months, years, an echoing, garnish’d house--but dead, dead, dead.”Posted by Nader Rider from on 02/17 at 08:33 PM
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