Sunday, January 23, 2005

Double Blackmail and the Iraqi Resistance

By Jordy Cummings

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  1. Interesting article.

    Respectfully, I would submit that it should suffice just to support the Iraqis right to resist occupation. To disparage elements within the resistance plays into the hands of the occupation’s divide-and-conquerors. The fact is that if there were no occupation or oppressing power then there would be no resistance.

    I would also caution against accepting the occupation-supporting media’s notion of the existence of a demonic Zarkawi—the resurrected Jordanian who reportedly speaks Arabic without a Jordanian accent.

    Posted by kim from  on  01/24  at  06:56 AM

  2. Good work Jordy. I’m going to think about that exchange (Achcar and Callinicos, both of whom I do try and read). Thanks for pointing that out for those of us who missed it (I don’t read Z-mag’s online stuff as much as I used to).

    Not that I know her at all, but judging from some of her writing, I’m not a huge Smith fan. That’s another ball of wax. However, here, I’ll give her some credit, she’s not totally authoritarian with all ‘musts’ and no ‘shoulds’. For example, I thought this was a pretty good summarizing exhortation:

    “The U.S. antiwar movement SHOULD ... expend less energy in judging the character of the Iraqi resistance and more effort on building a visible resistance to the Iraq occupation from inside the U.S.” (my emphasis)

    Which I’ll take as her wishing she had said something like Breton would have:

    “Freedom is an Iraqi word!”

    OK, I’m kidding.

    Personally I prefer NLR’s Susan Watkins’ conclusion about this whole Iraq thing:

    “Washington’s military-imperialist thrust into Central Eurasia, at first deplored by right-minded pillars of the status quo as an over-reaching adventure, has become the basis of a new world consensus: the hegemon must not be allowed to fail. The first, elementary step against such acquiescence is solidarity with the cause of national liberation in Iraq. The US-led forces have no business there. The Iraqi maquis deserves full support in fighting to drive them out.”

    I still don’t know about all this Maquisard analogizing, but Watkins did make her point as regards the antiwar movement.

    Posted by Theo from Greece  on  01/24  at  07:54 AM

  3. I am afraid that Jordy doesn’t understand what the Iraq CP is about. For a useful comparison, we should remember that after the Communist Party of Cuba was legalized by Batista in the late 1930s, two party members were invited to join his cabinet. Their statements from that period went overboard in praise of Batista and renounced any revolutionary goals. In the mid-40s, when the CP came to dominate the Cuban trade union movement, it was widely seen as a payoff for years of collaboration with a Batista whose government was becoming more and more repressive.

    Posted by Louis Proyect from NYC  on  01/24  at  10:27 AM

  4. Proyect’s comments here are well-taken, but who am I (or he) to say such a thing?  It seems like that from afar, but perhaps things are not so black and white?  For every corrupt sellout, there is another genuine activist, I am sure, in every political organization… My biggest issue is with that sort of thinking...at the very least it can be agreed that someone who is a labor organizer is by definition not “collaborating” with the people for whom his union is laboring - he is an “antagonist,” not a “collaborator.”

    Posted by j cummings from Canada  on  01/24  at  05:56 PM

  5. Can I reitterate something for other commenters.  Look at the first paragraph of my piece.  I dont’ think I have to repeat myself, and to suggest that because I make critical comment about specific issues, specifcally in regards to activist strategies, not Iraqi strategies (nowhere did I state that I didn’t support the resistance as I do every resistance to every occupying power)yet people actually believe that to (name your transgression, say “disparage..etc.” plays into hands, is using Bush-league binary logic, respectfully. 

    A quick re-read will lead anyone making such an argument to see that I believe precisely the opposite.  I will remind readers as well that I am talking about building critical mass against Imperialism, not a morally pure movement. If one thinks that they can coax the more than half of the American population who opposes the Iraq war to identify with such a movement?  I WISH the American public was politically mature enough to identify with such a program, understanding the intricacies, etc.  But I fear that using the slogan “End the War- Support the Resistance” or some such will scare more than half of the people away, right into the arms of Dean et. al -which could easily be done.

    Posted by j cummings from Canada  on  01/24  at  09:18 PM

  6. Occupation huh?  Sometimes war is necessary, sometimes it is inevitable.  If one knows one’s history, it becomes readily apparent that a vanquished country, previously ruled by the iron fist of a despot, often must be occupied for some time so that democratic stability can be established.

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/27  at  12:33 AM

  7. What is democratic stability?  Who is the one who gets to say “must?” Will you go fight in Iraq?  America is far less democratic than many countries, does it need to be “occupied?”

    Posted by j cummings from Canada  on  01/27  at  03:21 PM

  8. There is no hard and fast definition of democratic stability. Democracy as I view it, is an ideal, the manifestation of which is fluid and varying to many degrees… some degrees better than others....  Nonetheless, democratic stability is a noble endeavour when the alternative is despotism.

    Turning next to the issue of who gets to say who ‘must’ serve… Simple.  President Bush.  Congress handed that football off to President Bush, rightly or wrongly, constitutionally or unconstitutionally.  If democracy succeeds in Iraq, President Bush go down in history with the likes of Lincoln and FDR.  The first test will manifest in the upcoming elections.  In my amateur opinion, high Iraqi voter turnout in the upcoming election spells disaster for the insurgency.  But I digress....

    As for the query as to whether I will go fight in Iraq… I will not.  I am almost 60 years old.  I served in Vietnam as a helicopter gunner with Air Cav.  I don’t think Air Cav would have me at this point. My bones ache and my eyesight isn’t what it used to be.

    On the issue of occupation… Am I mistaken or did both Germany and Japan have to sustain occupation by US forces following the removal of their despotic regimes following WWII? And am I mistaken or are there currently democratic forms of government currently in place in both Germany and Japan?

    Perhaps one should evaluate historical context before one shoots one’s mouth off haphazardly…

    I served in Vietnam and I stand by those who currently serve in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.  My guess is that, God willing, those citizens of a hopefully soon to be free Iraq will stand by those who liberated them as well.

    Criticism is useful when it is tempered by thoughtful and measured insight.  Unfortuantely, thoughtfulnesss seems to be a commodity lacking when certain individuals post on this website.

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/27  at  11:27 PM

  9. You forgot Russia also occupied Germany along with the US, did you not?  Hence the Cold War.  In fact, I know an individual who was there when the Russians moved into the territory they occupied and what became known as East Germany.  His grandmother begged a Russian colonel to only take the cow she had on the farm and not both the cow and the calf.  The Russian colonel took both and said to her, “I don’t give a s**t.” Thoughtfulness wasn’t on his mind.

    Occupation isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. 

    Kurt Vonnegut survived the bombing of Dresden where more German civilians died from Allied forces’ bombs than the total number of deaths from the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined.  It might be helpful to consider some of his thoughts about war.

    There were hundreds upon thousands of people protesting the Vietnam War in many cities all over the United States, not just in Warshington, DC.

    Democracy has been defined as an ongoing revolution.  Democracy doesn’t necessarily mean freedom.  The US was a Republic, a representative democracy, not just a democracy.  Now, it’s basically a police state.

    There is much more war taking place in Iraq than is being reported by the pollyannish propaganda mass media. 

    I had friends that didn’t come back alive from Vietnam.  I’ll criticize war with reckless abandon.  It’s no bed of roses, no cakewalk and no picnic.

    Just a few words about a thing or two about a thing or two.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/28  at  12:31 AM

  10. Well at least we can agree on one point. . . Iraq is not a cakewalk.  What our troops are doing over there is hard work.  And we will see with the election on Sunday how well the Iraqi people apprecatiate the opportunity that has been given to them.

    I venture to guess that the percentage of people opposed to the occupation is greater in the US than the percentage opposed in Iraq.  The resistence in Iraq reflects the death throes of the Baathist party which was a minority party that held power by raping, terrorizing and torturing the population. 

    About a year and a half ago, I attended a dinner where Mohammed Rehaief spoke.  Mohammed is the Iraqi lawyer who alerted US troops as to the location where Jessica Lynch was being held and treated.  (if you can call it treatment) At any rate Mohammed shared many stories of the horror of living under Sadaam and Baathist rule.  I will share one with you. 

    Mohammed had procured a satelite dish so he could receive news from other than Baathist controled television channels.  Some type of Iraqi secret police found out, came to his house and kidnapped him in front of his wife and daughter.  He was tortured for 3 days.  Begging for his life, he told his captors that he would destroy the satelite dish.  He was let go at that point. 

    For those of you opposed to the war and the occupation… would you rather that such a despotic regime was still in place so people could be tortured for having satelite dishes?  And please, don’t respond by giving me a list of all of the other countries in the world where despots brutalize their people.  I am talking about Iraq.  Because that’s where we are.  That was the country that violated 19 UN resolutions over 10 years.  That’s the country that we know had WMD.  Don’t the ‘Bush lied’ crowd ever worry about there those WMD are? ? ? ? ? ?

    Think about it.

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/29  at  10:57 AM

  11. Where in the world is Waco, Texas?  Didn’t the FBI and the BATF attack and burn alive the residents at Mt. Carmel?

    I can think of one country other than Iraq where it brutally terrorizes and murders its own citizens.

    Think about it.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/29  at  11:16 AM

  12. That Raieff character, even Lynch acknowledged he is full of shit.

    Posted by j cummings from Canada  on  01/29  at  01:01 PM

  13. I won’t defend what happened in Waco.  And I didn’t vote for Clinton, whose administration was responsible for that.  But equating that to the US being a country that brutalizes and terrorizes its own citizens… well that’s quite a stretch.

    Even if Reiff was full of shit… do you doubt that Sadaam didn’t have people yanked out of their homes and tortured? That wives and daughters weren’t raped in front of their families.

    Is it not a good thing that such practices are no longer occurring?  Or would you rather still have Sadaam and the Baathists in power. 

    I don’t understand how anybody could take that position.

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/29  at  05:17 PM

  14. Shane, the point you make concerning freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam’s oppression is an excellent one, until you consider what took its place.  I urge you to peruse this interview with a former U.S. soldier who served with the 320th Military Police Company at Abu Ghraib.  Here are a few of the highlights:

    “There were prisoners who were beaten severely to within an inch of their lives for various infractions like disrespect or refusing to move. [They were] horribly brutal beatings.”

    “Abu Ghraib was extremely cold, and one of the ways guards used to control prisoners was to remove their clothing and tents, leaving them exposed to 30-degree weather.”

    “Another provision of the Conventions is that prisoners have to be protected. We were taking constant mortar and artillery bombardment [at Abu Ghraib] from the insurgents outside the prison. Of course, [the prisoners] weren’t protected; they were in open tents, and over 50 of them were killed because they were out in the open, they couldn’t flee, and they had no cover...When there were bombs falling, they just had to sit and hope they didn’t get killed.”

    And lest one believe such treatment was universally justified, given the potential security threat posed by those interred at this prison and others throughout Iraq, Mr. Delgado sheds a bit of light on that as well:

    “I worked in the radio headquarters of Abu Ghraib for a while...While I was there, I ended up reviewing the prisoner records and looking over the offenses of the people who were in Abu Ghraib prison. I found out that most of them were actually not there for anti-coalition offenses. They weren’t insurgents. Most of them were there for petty theft, drunkenness, forged documents, really minor crimes.”

    According to the author, the abuse wasn’t even limited to the prison:

    “We witnessed a Marine kick a six-year-old child in the chest for bothering him about food and water. People in my unit used to break bottles over Iraqi civilians’ heads as they drove by in their Humvees. A senior enlisted man in my unit lashed Iraqi children with a steel antenna because they were bothering him.”

    Of course, it’s impossible to know if this young ex-soldier is telling the truth.  But if the abuse is as routine and widespread as he claims, it appears the Iraqis have merely exchanged one set of brutal overlords for another.  It’s no wonder the insurgents have such an easy time recruiting new members.

    Posted by Paladin from Michigan, USA  on  01/29  at  10:04 PM

  15. If the statements above are in fact true, I believe they reflect the exception, not the rule. 

    Well, at least Iraqis are voting today.  So I guess the US is a brutal overlord that promotes self governance and democracy.  Yet you would have Sadaam?

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/30  at  11:16 AM

  16. Saddam allowed the Iraqi farmers to use the heirloom seeds that they saved from one year to the next.  Iraqi Order 81, imposed by the US, will not allow it.  That is just one small example of how the US is denying freedom and liberty to the Iraqi people. It looks like Monsanto is in charge of agriculture in Iraq. Also,Shane, you seem to be ignoring the 100,000+ Iraqi civilians that we slaughtered.

    Posted by rosemarie jackowski from  on  01/30  at  11:45 AM

  17. Shane, I propose that the question of whether the U.S. is truly promoting “self governance and democracy” is yet unanswered.  If, in the months and years following this election, it becomes clear that the Iraqis still aren’t in control of their own destiny, then perhaps you’ll return to explain to us (and them) exactly what it is we’ve given them in return for their blood.

    If, on the other hand, we see that Iraq is once again a truly sovereign nation, then I’ll gladly be among the first to admit you were right.

    Of course, that will be irrelevant to the Iraqi (tens of thousands) and American families (1400+ and counting) who have lost their loved ones in Bush’s dog and pony show.  Perhaps you should be asking THEM if they would prefer to have Saddam in power…

    Posted by Paladin from Michigan, USA  on  01/30  at  12:07 PM

  18. By placing the blame at Clinton’s feet, you absolve the US gov. of wrong doing?  You fool.

    I, too, will toast the success of the elections in Iraq if they prove to be worth the while.  I have my doubts and won’t hold my breath or stand on one leg.  NOT voting is a louder voice these days than voting.  Voting changes nothing, if it did, it would be made illegal. 

    I’ll have to place my bets on more war with the neocons running the show.  Bolshevism doesn’t take a holiday for nothing or nobody.

    Hey, take a look at undermars.com.  Copy and paste it, I refuse to link it here.  You won’t be able to ‘point with pride and view with alarm’ after seeing a few choice pics at that gem of a website.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/30  at  01:19 PM

  19. I don’t understand why a difference of opinion isn’t tolerated.  I don’t understand why those who disagree with me have to call me a fool.  I’ve fought in a war. I know what it is like to kill and be shot at.  I have seen the horrors of war.  I lost many friends.  I have served my country and believe I have earned my right to freely express myself.  And I can disagree with people all day long without calling them names.  I wish some of those who post on this message board could do the same.

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/30  at  03:36 PM

  20. Actually, you aren’t a fool.  I will retract my statement referring to you as one and submit an apology for doing so.  It was in no way intended to be offensive.  I read your opinions and value them, otherwise, I wouldn’t respond.  Everybody makes mistakes.

    I did it for humorous purposes and thought you might understand.  Everybody has a sense of humor, I’m not that big a fool.  I inserted my foot into my mouth in advance.

    Sticks and stones…

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/30  at  03:56 PM

  21. Ah, much appreciated.  Thanks.  I hope we can still disagree on things though.

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/30  at  08:34 PM

  22. Join the Repulican Party if you want socialism to prevail.

    It may seem far-fetched, but ‘non-partisans’, people who sympathized with socialists, but not socialist party members, were elected into office by running as Republicans during the Depression.  Senator William Langer, R-ND, was one.  There were strong objections, and he almost wasn’t awarded his seat in the US Senate.  He voted against joining the United Nations.  “All it will do is create perpetual war,” he admonished.

    Senator Gerald P. Nye R-ND was convinced to investigate the arms industry at the behest of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF).

    I hope this will stimulate some thought for/towards peace.  That is all anybody really wants.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  12:53 AM

  23. Yesterday stripped the Left of its remaining moral authority and intellectual integrity—if it ever had any. As brave Iraqis went to the polls under the threat of death, the Left retreated to the rhetoric that has made them irrelevant. The Left does not believe in human freedom-- which made it impossible for them to have “faith” in the power of freedom. The Left cares nothing—NOTHING—about the human lives that have been lost. They are merely material that supports their rhetoric - a stage prop for their political identity. They didn’t care about human life when Saddam murdered millions or when the insurgents murdered innocents or when humans are oppressed through-out the Middle East. Why? Because their ideology is more important than human life and the ideal of freedom or even truth. That is why you are irrelevant. Really, why don’t Lefties go to Iraq and fight with the insurgents (who actually find your ideology as repulsive as Americans do but would love to use you as a tool to help murder those aspiring to freedom). Come now, revolt so that free men and women can finally liberate you from your nihlistic existence. Stand up, like the brave Iraqis...But no...You have no courage or genuine convictions or anything that resembles humanistic impuslses. What you have is a shallow, pathetic and irrelevant political identity—which was rejected by America lond ago and by Iraqis yesterday. No doubt, today is not a good day to be a totalitarian sychophant. Maybe tommorrow a beheading will occur to cheer you up or a roadside bomb might kill an American or the insurgents will strap a bomb on someone with Down Syndrome to kill some children. Yes, that might help you to score some rhetorical points at the coffee house. It will not change the fact that Iraq is headed to freedom.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA  on  01/31  at  08:52 AM

  24. You are correct, sir.  In fact, let’s roll back to pre-1865 America and re-introduce slavery, auctions and all.  A constitutional republic just isn’t whole without those ‘benefits’, now is it?  How silly and stupid of the ‘left’ to want equality for women, native Americans and African-Americans.  They really don’t need to vote.  What is wrong with those commie-pinko-fags?  My God.

    Check out the election of 1856 and learn how bloody that one was right here in the good old US of A.  Hey, wasn’t the South occupied during Reconstuction?  I’ll bet that was fun.  “Those leftist Yankee bastards lead by that Lincoln character laid waste to the South and we were forced to free those slaves.  Even those black plantation owners had to give up the ownership of their slaves.  It just wasn’t fair.”

    Do you like week-ends off?  Do you like paid vacations?  They’re liberal ideas, believe it or not.

    Let’s invade Iraq to drive a stake through the heart of leftist movements.  That’s why the war is being fought?

    Democracy means everybody gets a vote, not just wealthy white men with slaves.

    There is an excuse for ignorance, but not for stupidity.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  10:57 AM

  25. “How silly and stupid of the ‘left’ to want equality for women, native Americans and African-Americans.  They really don’t need to vote.  What is wrong with those commie-pinko-fags?  My God.”

    You do not want equality for women in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afganistan, etc., ect.,...Nor for gays being murdered - yes, murdered—in these countries. You do not speak for them because you are a coward and an ideological sychophant. What you claim to value (which is valued by folks on the Left and Right) is less important than your political identity. The lives of these people and the value you claim to hold only serve as a political point. Your cowardice was mocked by the Iraqi people yesterday. Today, you are a repulsive joke to the human spirit.

    As for the rest of your ramble, its sounds like the typical regurgitation of totalitarian media outlets through-out the Middle East or Cuba. Not very orginal and devoid of intellectual integrity. It ammuses your Leftist friends who sit back hoping for more Americans and Iraqis to die so you can create a twisted rhetorical point. Today, you are hoping the 8 to 10 million Iraqis will die because they rejected your pathetic identity.

    “Do you like week-ends off?  Do you like paid vacations?  They’re liberal ideas, believe it or not.”

    Indeed, and I share these ideals—my parents and grand parents fought for these ideals. They were not cowards and sychophants—so I doubt you would understand their sacrifice as you do not understand Iraqi sacrifice.

    “Let’s invade Iraq to drive a stake through the heart of leftist movements.  That’s why the war is being fought? “

    Leftist movements have long been irrelevant in the US...Nothing needs to be done to make them more irrelevant. They do this task well enough on their own. Totalitarian sychophants have always been irrlevant among free people.

    “Democracy means everybody gets a vote, not just wealthy white men with slaves. “

    There were no white men with slaves voting yesterday...The people who voted were the ones you didn’t think wanted to be free or were incapable of freedom...because you are a racist. Yes, you wanted a tyrant or a collection of murderers to determine the future of Iraqi children-- just to justify your political identity.

    “There is an excuse for ignorance, but not for stupidity.”

    Coming from someone with no intellectual integrity, moral authority or concern for other human beings (except as they can be used to prop up your identity)...I can only laugh or cry at your statement. Perhaps, you will one day acquire the courage to engage in self-reflection and critical analysis of your ideology and character. The old women voting in Iraq under threat of death provide a model on which to start your journey.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  01/31  at  11:19 AM

  26. You’re rascist, too, and with a lot of empty rhetoric.  If you meet an old woman in a dark alley, do you feel threatened in any way?

    How about a black man who is 6’ 6’’ tall and about 230 lbs. meeting you in a dark alley?  Would you have a different idea of what might possibly happen to you?  Everybody is rascist.  It cannot be helped.

    As for irrelevance, the South suffered plenty of that after the Civil War.

    J. Robert Oppenheimer, Einstein’s boss, was left-leaning in his political beliefs.  His work on the Manhattan Project certainly wasn’t devoid of intellectual integrity.  I doubt very much that he was a sychophant, but I’ll let you make the call there.

    The US gummint lead by the ‘Republicans’ is the closest approximation of the embodiment of sychophancy available.

    Your ‘enlightened intellectualism’ is falling short of the mark.

    Keep trying, it makes good practice.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  11:50 AM

  27. “You’re rascist, too, and with a lot of empty rhetoric.”

    Nope. I only have negative emotions towards totalitarian sychophants and those who oppose human freedom.

    “If you meet an old woman in a dark alley, do you feel threatened in any way? “

    No. I just tell your mom I don’t want sexual favors and hand her a few dollars.

    “How about a black man who is 6’ 6’’ tall and about 230 lbs. meeting you in a dark alley?  Would you have a different idea of what might possibly happen to you?  Everybody is rascist.  It cannot be helped.”

    I have faith that all will be well....Just as I have faith that human beings yearn for freedom. Faith, after all, is equally as irrational as fear.

    “As for irrelevance, the South suffered plenty of that after the Civil War. “

    Yes and for good reason...they sought to negate freedom, just as the Left seeks to negate freedom today.

    “J. Robert Oppenheimer, Einstein’s boss, was left-leaning in his political beliefs.  His work on the Manhattan Project certainly wasn’t devoid of intellectual integrity.  I doubt very much that he was a sychophant, but I’ll let you make the call there.”

    He did his job to contribute to America’s security and freedom. His political identity did not supercede his moral or intellectual integrity. I too have liberal values. I just haven’t sold them out for a political identity that negates human freedom.

    “The US gummint lead by the ‘Republicans’ is the closest approximation of the embodiment of sychophancy available. “

    No...Saying nothing as Saddam killed millions (Left), raped, tortured and degraded the human spirit in order to justify your political position is “sychophancy”. Rooting for Zarquawi and bin Laden and Arab totalitarians is sychophancy-- and a betrayal of human spirit and values. You can disagree with our government and take steps to change it by changing minds. You, however, lack the intellectual integrity and moral authority to convince anyone besides self-loathing, upper-middle class Chomskyites. That is why the Left (not necessarily liberals) is irrelevant.

    “Your ‘enlightened intellectualism’ is falling short of the mark.”

    I wouldn’t spend time trying to enlighten you, because you lack the courage to recieve enlightment. The first step is to help you overcome your cowardice and attain some semblence of humanity.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  01/31  at  12:11 PM

  28. People, you are digressing. Get back on track.

    Read Patrick Cockburn on counterpoint.org today, in which he writes:

    “The wall-to-wall media coverage of the election yesterday obscured several of the realities of political life in Iraq. The National Assembly now being elected will have limited powers. It is constituted so no single community can dominate the others. But, as in Lebanon, this may be a recipe for paralysis. The assembly must elect a president and two vice-presidents and they will in turn chose a prime minister and ministers. The successful candidate will be the person with the fewest enemies....

    “The enthusiasm with which so many Shia went to the polls is a double-edged weapon. They did so in the belief that their ballots would translate into power.

    “In the immediate future, the election changes little in Iraq. The world is full of parliaments duly elected by a free ballot but power stays elsewhere, with the army, the security services or, in the case of Iraq today, an occupying foreign power.”

    For the full article, “But the Occupiers Will Remain in Power,” go to http://www.counterpunch.org/

    Posted by JayVos from Burlington, VT  on  01/31  at  12:26 PM

  29. No. I just tell your mom I don’t want sexual favors and hand her a few dollars.

    I think you have crossed a line with that statement.  You say you have ‘faith’.  It is a most odious kind.  I’ll forgive you, though.  I would hope that your actions will have a kindness in future encounters with members of the opposite sex; if you aren’t racist, you make it up by being sexist.  No kudos for you.

    I’ll let you continue to paint yourself into morally bankrupt corner.

    If anyone has committed a moral treason, you have; you haven’t fallen short of the mark there.

    I have met people from all over the world.  I really don’t believe I am rascist like you unkindly claim. Have a nice day.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  12:30 PM

  30. In Summary…

    1. The Left does not want Iraqis to have freedom and would prefer that the terrorist thwart the will of 8 to 10 million Iraqis. The reason: this outcome helps to preserve the anti-American, anti-Democratic positions of the Left

    2. People only matter and rights only matter if it enables the Left to slander the US or Western values. All other tragedy is ignored if it cannot be equated to an adolescent ideology developed by upper/upper-middle class white men (Chomsky, Soros, etc).

    3 The Left is willing to sacrifice its core values (rights, freedom, equality, etc) in order to feed its political identity.

    4. The elections that occured yesterday were a major defeat to terrorists and to the Left. Both are revealed as morally and intellectual bankrupt by the bravery of the Iraqi people. Both represent the continuation and/or spread of oppression. Both are viewed as cowardice caricatures of human spirit that offer no value in the marketplace of ideas.

    5. The Left reveals itself as a racist ideology that believes that Arabs aren’t smart enough, advanced enough or civilized enough for freedom.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  01/31  at  12:46 PM

  31. Mr. Yonts:  At this stage of the game, you have sacrificed any credibilty that you thought you had.

    Substitute the words ‘United States’ for ‘the Left’ and you will be a little closer to the reality of what has taken place regarding Iraq.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  01:40 PM

  32. MDPB,

    The Iraqis destroyed your credibility yesterday. While you were encouraging those who despise freedom to murder Iraqis and Americans, the Iraqi people rejected your ideology. Admit it, you hope that the Iraqis fail to gain control over their life. You relish every US soldier and Iraqi security personnel that dies. You do not want peace or a better life for anyone. You only want to validate your pathetic identity—even if it means being a traitor to liberal values and humanistic ideals.

    1. Where were the human shields protecting Iraqi men and women who took their children to the polls? We’re they still protecting Baathists and terrorists? Or were they simply cheering on the boy with Down Syndrome who was used as a suicide bomber?

    2. Where is the courage to speak up for gays murdered, women oppressed and human beings who desire freedom? You have abdicated that to the Moderates and the Right-- in order to solicit “that-a-boy’s” from totalitarians and their sychophants. Impressive!

    3. Why don’t you go to Iraq and fight along side the terrorists? Do you speak your venon to pass time or to fit in or to win the favor of others oppossed to freedom? My guess is that courage is lacking for you to be anything other than a parrot of a pathetic ideology.

    4. How long does the Left intend to add no value to anyone? No hope? No solutions?

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  01/31  at  01:57 PM

  33. I guess we aren’t seeing eye-to-eye today.  You spout your vitriole against the left with as much hate as an insurgent who lost his brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts and cousins during ‘shock and awe’.

    If the Iraqi military marched up the Potomac and set up shop in Anacostia, I don’t think you would tolerate their actions.  Would you be there with roses and chocolate cake.

    “They’ve got it better than we do."- the words of National Guardsman after he returned from Iraq

    You are approaching senseless bickering.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  02:14 PM

  34. MDPB,

    I don’t want to bicker. I am simply filled with the passion and pride of someone who has witnessed the power of the human spirit. I am filled with love for my fellow man and woman—and hope in a better future for my friends in the Middle East. The power of freedom is awesome and real and more profound than anything ever uttered by Marx or Chomsky or Soros.

    I even have hope for you and those who have chosen a mere political identity over real men and women. I even have hope for insurgents, who had 30 years to rape, murder and torture their fellow Iraqis before being removed from power. Yes, I grieve that their choices cost the lives of those they cared about and others that they didn’t care about. My hope and faith transends mere politics this day. I cannot hate you or the Left on this day. I am, after all, grateful for you. You awake in me the importance of self-reflection and the triviality of mere ideological banter. I see in you the success of my own beliefs and the reward in my faith.

    I’ve nothing but love…

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  01/31  at  02:30 PM

  35. <a href="http://secretsinbaghdad.blogspot.com/">election<a>

    If you want to eat, you vote.  Food has become a weapon.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  09:47 PM

  36. election

    “Did you know that the “ration” card of year 2005, that allows you to take sugar, flower and few other things too, which have been the main resource for Iraqi families’ food since early nineties, will not be given except for those who will vote?”

    That’s what you call a ‘free election’?
    I

    Posted by MDPB from  on  01/31  at  10:01 PM

  37. Wow… someone has thrown gasoline on this debate. 

    Without expressing an opinion in this particular post, I would like to ask a question.
    But first let me lay a brief premise.  Often times, the anti ‘war in Iraq’ advocates (or, if one prefers, the anti-occupation advocates) counter arguments to the contrary by citing 100,000+ dead innocent Iraqi’s.  Just above I saw a reference to ‘shock and awe’ which I assume is being asserted as a cause for a portion of these 100,000+ deaths.

    My question is, where does this number come from?  Is there any source that substantiates such claims with credible evidence?

    I personally find it hard to believe that so many deaths could have resulted collaterally without the entire population of Iraq going in complete revolt.  But I have nothing to support my supposition and I am open to being enlightened. 

    If you have info on this, please advise. 

    Shane

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  01/31  at  10:11 PM

  38. MDPB,

    You give a source that is a step below a totalitarian, state-run Arab media outlet—which would have been eager to report such things. Any French,CNN,BBC or ABC reporter would have run this story with glee were it true. Why debate dubious sources. There were between 8 to 10 million people who had the courage to vote—despite the threats of your chosen allies who promised to kill them. Perhaps, they valued a couple days of rations over the threat of death. Perhaps, the US would allow Iraqis to starve who refused to vote. Yes, none of the PhD’s at the Dept of State, Defense, or CIA would think that would be a bad PR move. Tell me, when you become part of the far Left, do you abandon intellectual integrity right away—or does it gradually erode the more respected you become in the coffee shops...or the more knowledgeable you become in anti-Americanism and Marxism (as taught by upper/upper middle class white guys). If nothing else you are quite curious, though not quite interesting.

    I almost sense the false concern and moral indignation. “Damn Americans are going to starve those poor Iraqi insurgents and only give food to those who vote!” Excellent propaganda! If Communism wasn’t such a pathetic system you might have been a great central planner or at least the sychophant of a central planner. Today, however, you’d have to find a position with a state-run media outlet in the Middle East in order to best utilize your insight. You could teach those guys a thing or two. They don’t emphasize the influence of Zionists, Imperialists, infidels and the noble insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan quite enough (they should probably start teaching these topics in pre-K instead of first grade-- since it’s possible an independent thought or idea might develop before a kid turns 6). You would be great at helping to educate children to be anything but free and capable of providing for himself or herself. Just a thought.

    Why are my favorite Lefties so glum today? Its as if the courageous voice of the Iraqi people whispered something profound in your ears that you must grapple with. Yes, the spirit of a free man and woman cannot be processed as quickly as a passage from Chomsky or Marx. You must reflect on the power of the images seen around the world of 8 million people standing up to say they are willing to die for their freedom. You know by this that they are willing to fight for their freedom—and that your cause has not only lost but no longer has any semblence of moral authority or intellectual integrity. You have voted for totalitarianism so as to spite America. You have wished and cheered the death of others to validate your political ideology. You would deny others the freedom you have right now in order to make a point. The dark side must be quite dark today.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA  on  01/31  at  10:53 PM

  39. Indeed, the source is of a dubious nature.  Propaganda it could very well be, I won’t rule it out.  Of course, knowing that you would label it as propaganda, I didn’t hesitate to post the link.

    I know how to bait a hook.  You’re too smart to get fished-in, though.  Now, I’m snagged and have to cut the line.  Very well, but, I didn’t get skunked.

    I’m beginning to wonder just what is the nature of your business.

    Seems as though you’re a pretty darn good propagandist yourself.  Right wing propaganda is very convincing, too.

    I’ll let that sleeping dog snooze.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  02/01  at  12:08 AM

  40. Whether you want to regard it as propaganda or not depends on what you consider a reliable source. The figure is from a study by The Lancet, a respected British medical journal. You can read about it on this CBC site: http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/28/iraq_deaths041028.html

    Posted by Greg Stricherz from Minneapolis, MN  on  02/01  at  08:52 AM

  41. “I’m beginning to wonder just what is the nature of your business.”

    I wonder the same thing-- but I go much further and the self-reflection consumes me, re-shapes me and finally releases me to another distraction.

    “Seems as though you’re a pretty darn good propagandist yourself.  Right wing propaganda is very convincing, too. “

    I’m horrible at propaganda, since I lack the ability to take myself too seriously and understand the finite nature of human intellect. I would be especially bad at Right wing propaganda. The best I can hope for is to communicate a faith and belief in the individual and the awesome power of freedom. My goal is to summon within you a flame of freedom that is greater than my own, more pure and precise than my own. Freedom is the theme-- and seeing freedom in the spirit of men and women is what motivates me. The moment that someone sees the opportunities and possibilities and noble challenges of freedom and falls in love with it...that to me transends any arguement or debate or intellectual exercise. It certainly transends a political identity or ideology. No identity or ideology can compare to a man or woman that has become pregnant with potentiality and their own power and course. The sight of a free people is enough for me. The thought that a free man or woman might share a dialogue with me or join me in debate or accept me or reject me of their own free will—that is the sweetness that flavors my soul.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  02/01  at  09:17 AM

  42. Greg,

    The article implies that 100,000 deaths were caused by airstrikes (as a primary contributor). How many were Saddam’s military forces, Baathists and insurgents? How many people were killed by the Baathists and terrorists? How many people in the Sunni areas inflated the toll of the war in order to contribute to the propaganda of anti-American media in the West and the region?

    Of course, its estimated that Saddam murdered 1.2 million of his own people over the past 20 years. (Remember, those folks that the Left don’t mention because they don’t help to support a political identity.) We’re the average number of political murders under Saddam taken into account? We’re mortality rates based on Saddam’s regime numbers, which I would imagine were skewed like everything else is skewed in a totalitarian regime?  But hey, no need to ask these questions-- you might just discover the propaganda is less powerful and convincing.

    The real issue is that those 100,000 are not cared about in the perspective of the Left any more than the millions killed, raped and tortured by Saddam. Just as those murdered and tortured and oppressed by totalitarians in the Mideast are of no concern to the Left. The Left views human life as an abstraction that can either support a rhetorical point or human lives and liberty is ignored. Point in fact, most in this discussion (read above posts) hope that more Americans, Iraqis and coaltion troops are killed. Why...becuase they’d rather see their political identity validated than to see the lives of anyone improve.

    The Left has done nothing to save a single life or improve a single life. It has chosen to serve as a cheerleader of death and oppression so as to spite the US or Bush. Pathetic really...but despite this, I am hopeful that intellectual integrity and moral authority will once again return to liberalism. Unfortunately, much that can be done in these areas is stifled by cowardice and intellectual pettiness.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  02/01  at  09:45 AM

  43. The elections had a decent turnout.  The insurgents contributed a token amount of violence for a dog and pony show to look good.  Maybe they were willing to have the election proceed in order to give the impression that the Iraqi people can vote in a free election; the US has been hoodwinked, once again.

    Pure conjecture, but it could be.

    The insurgents purposely let the elections go on without a hitch because they know that the elected government backed by the US would want the US to stay.  Much easier for the insurgents to kill Americans in Iraq than back home in the United States.  Works better that way.

    Don’t expect the violence to stop.  The war is going to increase in intensity until the Americans are gone or dead.

    The election was the insurgents wet dream.  The sins of Abu Ghraib will be avenged.

    All is fair in love and war.

    The rout is planned and coming to haunt the US.

    It is not ‘intellectual pettiness’, it is a realistic assessment.

    “If foresight were only as good as forethought."- Napoleon

    Posted by MDPB from  on  02/01  at  11:29 AM

  44. MDPB,

    Come on just admit that you want the Iraqi people to suffer and die to serve your political identity. Honesty...no matter how vile, it is much better than line after line of conspiracy theories and parroting of Leftist rhetoric. You want the US to fail and the Iraqi people to return to tyranny… Just say it and liberate yourself from these absurd attempts at appearing analytical. It won’t make your ideology any less irrelevant than it is right now and it will provide you with a greater range of intellectual integrity. Say loud and clear that you are with those who strap bombs on retarded children and that seek to negate the freedom of other Iraqis. Its not so hard. Other Leftists and totalitarian sychophants have already taken this bold stand...you will not be alone. You are already echoing your wishes through your postings—but you have not quite taken the great leap into honest conversation. Spewing the adolescent analysis of CommonDreams.org and JihadSpun.org isn’t enough. In fact, it has the affect of infusing a blanket of tedious, think boredom on our dialogue. What are you afraid of? Reveal yourself truely as someone who is opposed to human life and freedom just to serve your political identity.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  02/01  at  02:16 PM

  45. Yoonts may not be a good right wing propagandist, but he is very funny.  I mean come on man, is this therapeutic for you?  What is a greater threat to your freedom, a couple of people who you may believe to be misguided, but who are simply people philosophically opposed to war?  Or is the tedium of bourgeois office going life so unappealing tht you feel the need, as many of us office dwellers do, to snipe at people in order to compensate for other areas of your life.  This is not about political identity.

    Dude, you seemed to be not so bugged out when we had that little Marx/Drucker comparison thing going on...can you not accept that people have different opinions than yourself in regards to war and indeed the ontology of freedom itself, and if it actually exists.  Kris Kristoferson’s lyric in the (best known by Janis Joplin) song “Me and Bobby McGhee” apply in spades here.."freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.” Sure, under capitalism, people are “Free” to buy and sell commodities and their labor power.  They are free to have nothing left to lose.  Of course Marx said we have nothign left to lose but our chains.  Your chain must really be bothering you.

    Posted by j cummings from Canada  on  02/01  at  02:56 PM

  46. j,

    Good to hear from you! I agree with your post...somewhat.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond, VA  on  02/01  at  03:26 PM

  47. You want to make it sound as if the US government is in no way responsible for the 100 000 dead Iraqis after the invasion of Iraq by the coalition forces.

    There were millions of people who voiced opposition to the invasion.  If I am informed correctly, antiwar.com consists of conservatives who are also opposed to the war.  I suppose they are ‘anti-life’, too.

    The misguided, disenchanted, wild-eyed, dogmatic ideologues from the Left are not alone.

    My children don’t think that I am opposed to human life.

    Ad hominem now becomes your only argument.

    Had the US and the neocon rabble done their homework, they wouldn’t be in the mess they’re in over there.

    This is what General Tommy Franks said about Dougie Feith:

    “The fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth.”

    It’s my fault, though.  If that’ll make you happy, then fine.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  02/01  at  04:06 PM

  48. Wow, check out that insurgency in Iraq… They kidnapped a GI Joe doll!

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  02/01  at  08:40 PM

  49. Shane,

    Apparently, there has been a big push to get people with Down Syndrome involved in the insurgency. Perhaps, the insurgency has started opening up their planning process, as well as their PR department with a more diverse group of terrorist. They should be commended on their diversity policy. Just because someone thinks he’s Elvis, likes to play with action figures and hold little plastic guns to GI Joe’s head...that doesn’t mean he can’t hate freedom and infidels with the best of them. Before we judge, think about how you’d feel if someone said you couldn’t be in charge of propaganda just because of brain damage or that your a moron. That guy is an inspiration to those who love action figure theatre...and believe in extreme affirmative action.

    Posted by Cannon Yonts from Richmond,VA  on  02/01  at  10:14 PM

  50. real cute. It’s all fun and games to poke fun.  Now, go on home, kiddies, your mama is calling you.

    “that your a moron”

    that you’re a moron

    I’ll step in for a moment, and be a copy editor.

    Gettin’ a little smarmy in here.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  02/01  at  10:27 PM

  51. I don’t believe my ears.  I am listening to Nancy Pelosi make an ass of herself in her response to the our President’s State of the Union speech.  She just outlined her 3 point plan for Iraq that if followed, will ensure that the next Iraq elections, which are scheduled for December 2005, will be more secure and have a better turnout!

    More secure and better turnout!  What election was she watching this past weekend?  You have got to be kidding me. 

    GI Joe dolls… Downs syndrome recruits… Millions voted and (thankfully) relatively few were killed by insuregents… Voter turnout estimates are over 60%... But we need to make it more secure and increase turnout?  Please. 

    If anyone needs to go home, I think it’s Nancy.

    Unbelievable.

    Posted by Shane Easton from So Chas  on  02/02  at  10:35 PM
    52. Commenting is not available in this weblog entry. {/if}

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