Tuesday, November 23, 2004

Interview with a Tupamaro

By Mickey Z.

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Posted 11/23 | Add a Comment

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  1. This is ok. But the typical tripe passed off in this realm as being informative does nothing to advance anything.  I’d like to add that readers of this site and contributors (in gen’l) are supporting someone who has no respect for the historical record.  I submit that nothing good can come of associating with someone who (on a whim) can delete a year’s worth of contributions by Richard Oxman. Out of personal frustration. And what does it say about Mickey, that he continues to write this “distanced” stuff, but has refused to take a public stand on such actions. It is one thing for someone to object to another’s attitude and political views.  It’s an entirely other thing to tolerate the kind of damaging behavior exhibited by Mark Hand of late.

    Posted by Mr. Y from  on  11/23  at  04:26 PM

  2. What is this about the “damaging behavior of Mark Hand”? I’m sorry I have not followed all the drama in its details. What is going on? Thanks

    Censorship is serious business, the US media does it best.

    Posted by Rhino Rick from  on  11/23  at  06:42 PM

  3. Both of these comments have nothing to do with Mickey Z.’s article contents. I would like to participate in the participartory anarchist cooperative that others would like Press Action to become and suggest that off-topic notes like this be handled outside the comment forum. And that public personal attacks not be condoned or tolerated by PA readers.

    How’s that for a polemical notion?

    Mickey - thank you for this interesting interview.

    Posted by lucy from  on  11/23  at  07:10 PM

  4. i love lucy: she wants to participate in an anarchist cooperative that others would like press action to become. in another comment she writes and i quote :"Perhaps Press Action could post guidelines for comments in full interest of disclosure for those that choose to participate”.
    anarchism is just that: ‘no rules’, lucy! i do not know who x, y and z are but obviously there is some guerilla action coming down on press action to disturb this perfectly nice and polite progressive website. must be some anarchists…

    Posted by gui rochat from new york  on  11/23  at  08:38 PM

  5. dear rhino, i do not know you but would you send me your email address? thanks,

    Posted by gui rochat from new york  on  11/23  at  09:05 PM

  6. I have been reading the comments here on Press Action regarding Richard Oxman. As the Ron Artest of the progressive community, I feel that Ox’s lifetime ban might be rather harsh. Perhaps Ox should allowed back when Ron Artest plays his next NBA game.

    Whomever threw the first cup of ice is not really important. Obviously, Mark Hand does not have to allow anyone on his website that he does not see fit. Whether the issue is personal or a difference in philosophy, only Mark knows for sure. In fact, I will be the first to admit that Ox is difficult to deal with sometimes. Not more that five months ago I was critical of Derrick Jensen for a passage where he commented that he is not entirely against the idea of prisons. I took this to heart in disargeement and sent Jensen an email with a cheap shot or two. Ox took offense to my “offending one of the greatest writers of this era” or something to that nature. I still disagree with Jensen, however he would not debate me in private and I apologized for the tone of my email. My point is that I’m sure Ox has offended Mark and Mickey Z for the same type of personal attack that I tossed at Jensen.

    Furthermore, I was critical of Mickey Z for leaving NY during the Republican convention earlier this year. I still disagree with Z on that decision and the militant veganism that he promotes. However, that by no means lessens my respect of Z or anyone else for that matter. Mark is great writer as well as a webmaster and I’m grateful that he has given me a forum to post articles...not to mention provided much of the traffic via the link he provides on the right hand side of this page to theSan Diego Moon. Shameless, I know.

    So where do we go from here? Well, no one can deny Ox’s passion for the cause. In fact, we all want the same thing. And I think we all are looking for that new paradigm that will bring about change. I truly believe that the internet is the last place to find revolution. I see the forthcoming revolutionary community being formed without any help from cell phones or email. There is too much of a chance for fraud to trust relationships online. Just look at the streets and you’ll see people staying in their own clique via the cell phone. People will occupy the same piece of the Earth, yet they would rather talk to someone miles away. This is how technology keeps everyone devided.

    Con’d…

    Posted by Kap Fulton from San Diego, CA  on  11/24  at  02:38 AM

  7. Con’d…

    I think Z is on the right track with this article. We need more Reality Robin Hoods and less Techno Tricksters. I think back to the professor who tried to start a movement by painting her car with racial slurs and blaming it on vandals. This reminds me of the following passage from Fyodor Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamazov:

    “Above all, do not lie to yourself. A man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point where he does not discern any truth either in himself or anywhere around him, and thus falls into disrespect towards himself and others. Not respecting anyone, he ceases to love, and having no love, he gives himself up to passions and coarse pleasures, in order to occupy and amuse himself, and in his vices reaches complete beastiality, and it all comes from lying continually to others and to himself. A man who lies to himself is often the first to take offense. It sometimes feels very good to take offense, doesn’t it? And surely he knows that no one has offended him, and that he himself has invented the offense and told lies just for the beauty of it, that he has exaggerated for the sake of effect, that he has picked on a word and made a mountain out of a pea, he knows all of that, and still he is the first to take offense, he likes feeling offended, it gives him great pleasure, and thus he reaches the point of real hostility. Do get up from your knees and sit down, I beg you, these posturings are false, too.”

    The Moon will continue to run articles by Richard Oxman. I hope Mark will reconsider and at least let Ox leave comments. Derrick Jensen wrote to me: “If you are going to insult me again, please don’t ever write me again. I am trying to take on this awful culture, and I don’t need attacks from ostensible allies.”

    Well said.

    Posted by Kap Fulton from San Diego, CA  on  11/24  at  02:49 AM

  8. To Lucy, yes, Mick’s article was very important and a great example of WHAT WE CAN DO.

    Re: Ox, I don’t know the controversy but agree in general with Kap. I love Ox’s passion but have also disagreed with him (ironically, it was also some small quibble with Jensen’s book, who I also highly respect). However, overall, I have AGREED with most of Richard Oxman’s comments regarding his criticisms of the ineptitude of the Left. I also appreciate that he has given this site a great deal of fire that would otherwise been lacking. Maybe people are too thin skinned, but I appreciate that everyone’s point of view is important and that of course not everyone is going to agree (with him or me, I do not pretend to be on the level of knowledge of the Left’s more prominent pundits).

    I also respect Mark Hand for putting this site together and whatever the story is, I hope it can be worked out.

    Mountains out of molehills?

    Posted by Rhino Rick from  on  11/24  at  04:17 AM

  9. Kap,

    Thank you for the Brothers Karamazov quote. Today would have been my mother’s birthday and Dostoyevsky was her absolute favorite author.

    I was up late last night with insomnia and wondering what she might have told me in the face of a challenging situation, and moments later your quote appeared here.

    A nice bit of spiritual synchronicity at work…

    -Nancy

    Posted by Nancy from  on  11/24  at  09:44 AM

  10. Gui-- I just posted a comment policy on Press Action this morning so I’ll give you a pass on your comment above. But if you make any future threats against Press Action, I do reserve the right to ban you from this site and it would be completely justified. In case you don’t know the comment to which I’m referring, it is: “obviously there is some guerilla action coming down on press action to disturb this perfectly nice and polite progressive website.”

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  11/24  at  12:05 PM

  11. fine mark, do what you will but what i wrote :"obviously there is some etc.” is not a threat as I have no idea who wrote x or y and i only referred to their messages (and it is not me who sent these comments). but if you feel threatened, then by all means protect yourself. best regards, g.

    Posted by gui rochat from new york  on  11/24  at  01:16 PM

  12. Dear Mark,

    What is the specific reason your have banned Richard Oxman from posting comments here? I read you new policy outline. Did he violate one of those items? I would say you are walking on shaky ground by banning people who are rude or authoritarian-- very subjective! I have been rude (tongue and cheek) on several occasions (well, never intentionally so except to a few idiots that deserved it). If so, shouldn’t latitude be given to err and forgive divine? On the other hand, yes, you must protect yourself and the integrity of the site. I realize this is tricky. I also checked and as far as I could tell you have not sanitized the record at PA. Could you clarify if you have and to what extent? Just trying to understand. Thanks, Rhino Rick

    Posted by Rhino Rick from  on  11/24  at  06:19 PM

  13. “O Bailan Todos O No Baila Nadie”...”Either everyone dances or no one dances.”

    Worldlink TV had an interview/documentary of Noam Chomsky a few years ago.  It was three or four hours in length and extremely interesting.  In the program, a heckler confronted Dr. Chomsky about his views and opinions about world affairs. Noam replied to him in his unshakeable fashion, “Stalin was in favor of freedom of speech, as long as it coincided with his views.” Josef Stalin was sentenced to three years to the Siberian taiga in his younger years.

    I have gone round and round with Mr. Oxman because I simply disagreed with him, not to quiet him.  If he became abusive, then he maybe was feeling some guilt pangs.  I can forgive him.  I’ll defend his right to free speech and free thought, i.e. free association, even if he sometimes manages to make a fool of himself.  Nobody is perfect.

    Posted by MDPB from  on  11/24  at  07:23 PM

  14. “And I honor the man who is willing to sink half his present repute for the freedom to think,
    and, when he has thought, be his cause strong or weak, will risk t’ other half for the freedom to speak.” - James Russell Lowell

    Posted by MDPB from  on  11/24  at  07:39 PM

  15. First of all,I owe Mark an apology.He did not remove any of my comments on another article(which I mistakenly thought he did),though he did remove a fair number(which he also returned to the discussion).So thank you Mark,and I apologize for my own mistake.I’ve spent a fair amount of time running online communities/message board type forums,and they can be a major headache,to say the least.I have no problems with admitting when I make an error.I still don’t agree with what went on with Ox here,but I will admit when I screw up personally.In this case I accused Mark of something he did not do,which was removing my own comments.

    As for Oxman,yes,I think that at times he is perhaps easily considered obnoxious.However,just because one disagrees with him or thinks his ideas are too “out there”,does not mean everything he’s written is automatically invalid.What Ox is proposing is something a bit different than the norm.It’s not just about disrupting the tapings of Leno/Letterman and having that scenerio then edited out and falling into obscurity.If that were the case,there would really be no need to time it right or spend so much time on it.We have plenty of rowdies in the US who want a few minutes of notice,if Ox’s plan were merely that,it would have happened by now.I’d suggest scratching a little below the surface on that one before making a final dismissal since there actually could be something of great use in it,even if you don’t agree with ALL of it.

    Mickey’s article shows a little piece of smaller movements globally that are making headway.Landless peoples(or those about to become landless)world wide are fighting back,sometimes winning through persistant and often dangerous efforts,but a key thing in these various forms of resistance is persistance in the face of seemingly enormous odds of failing.I doubt that all the people in these places,doing what they do,agree on every single detail.The best lesson we can take from those doing these things is to keep in mind that in order for real change to happen we simply must look at common goals and keep those on the front burner.The more ideas and ways to get to those changes and make them stick is to have as much as possible to choose from.The more ideas,examples,working models and so on that we have,the better.

    Posted by Tammy from Metro Atlanta  on  11/25  at  10:16 AM

  16. Tammy-- Thanks for the note. I like your idea presented in the last paragraph of your post regarding “the more ideas, examples, working models and so on that we have, the better.”

    For anyone who cares, all of Richard’s articles were restored on Wednesday and he is free to comment on Press Action again. I’d prefer, though, if he’d refrain from threatening “to go public” on me again in retaliation for me choosing, as editor, not to publish some of the articles he submits and for me choosing, as I should be able to do without being on the receiving end of abuse on my website, not to correspond with him.

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  11/25  at  11:55 AM

  17. Mark...Thank you for restoring Richy articles. You, Richy, and all of the writers on PA are a great inspiration. In the Comments, I guess that we all should try to avoid ad hominem attacks...hopefully we can do that and still keep all of the passion for our Cause. We can do that.

    Posted by rosemarie jackowski from  on  11/25  at  01:06 PM

  18. I heaed of Mickey Z. through my following Richard Oxman’s postings.

    I have just heard that Ox is no longer on this webpage. That is a shame and the censorship should end.

    In solidarity,
    Dave

    Posted by Dave Stewart from  on  11/29  at  06:20 PM

  19. I agree with Dave, Mark. The more voices of dissent, the better. Let Oxman speak!

    Posted by Rhino Rick from  on  12/01  at  06:58 AM

  20. With apologies to Mickey for another comment off the topic of his article, I just wanted to let readers know that Richard Oxman’s writings are available on this website (check out the index of contributors) and Richard is free to comment. Richard recently submitted an article to Press Action about John Brown and other topics that I opted not to post on this site (see San Diego Moon and Alternative Press Review for the article). But I welcome future submissions by Richard and will consider posting them on PA on a case-by-case basis.

    --Mark

    Posted by Mark Hand from  on  12/01  at  11:12 AM

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